Harddrive Camcorder

[jchunter]

The OP asked a question about a camcorder that records in Mpeg2. By definition, forum members who have direct experience with editing Mpeg2 are best qualified to answer questions on this subject.

Those members who have no direct experience with a topic have a responsibility to refrain from criticizing another member’s reply. They, especially, have no right to start a public argument on any topic in a new user’s thread.

[GuyL]

I'm not taking part in any arguments. I offered my comments because I do have experience in editing MPEG2. Without going into great detail, I edited in MPEG2 for several years. Every project was playing by chance. Some projects turned out great while others had OOS problems, video artifacts, stuttering, etc. I've restarted many projects from scratch as a result. For the last two years, I've been editng in AVI and have never had any issues with any project. I still capture in MPEG2 when I do not plan any editing.

[ggrussell]

I have edited and re-edited mpeg2 (recursively) video with ISO resolution charts imbedded. I can't see any loss of resolution or compression artifacts as long as the video bitrate is kept high (>=8Mbps).

I don't see how using STATIC charts a viable test since most compression algorythms are based on the changes between frames. You want a REAL test sequence? Go to www.streamcrest.com. and their download section for their Streamcrest Motion1 Test Sequence Generator. It generates a totally UNCOMPRESSED AVI with only 256 frames. EACH FRAME is unique meaning there is constant change. This is the only way to truely test a compression codec.

[heinz-oz]

We are straying from the original posters question. This poor person has still not received a meaningfull answer.

I guess the going on's here indicate the level of support one could expect to get if there were (IMHO there will be) problems with editing the footage from such a camera.

Based on that personal opinion I would advise the original poster to avoid DVD camcorders at this point in time. I learned the hard way that, having the latest and the "best" available will leave you high and dry when you need support.

[kbaerwald]

i understand the harddrive camcorder records in MPEG-2. this format is very bad for editing. Also the new HD camera records in MPEG-2. ARe there any software for good MPEG-2 editing?

Or does this mean it's better not to buy a harddrive camcorder? please shed some light on this issue.

I am pretty new to this board but work with camcorders since the "early days" of MJPEG. Some months ago I reentered the world of video with a decision for a mpg workflow. This is why:

- Mpg-based cameras are small and I wanted a very mobile camcorder with Dolby sound
- the destination of my video work should be DVD which is mpg-based
- my workflow will not include a change of bandwidth - so I record with 8.5 Mbps and i keep it on the DVD
- the process of downloading to my PC is straightforward (transfer from a CF card!)
- as I usually do not do frame-based video editing the most near position of an I-frame should be sufficient. Of course I hope to get an more precise editing solution one day . Also - there is some degradation during editing when you "touch" the video for transitions and filters but I can live with it
- very rarely I get video stuttering but again I can live with it as I do not earn my money with video editing

Bottom line: I am quite happy with my solution because I know the restrictions and see the whole workflow as a reasonable approach for my person.

Klaus

[jchunter]

Heinz-Oz,
You are right about this thread being way off topic. However, the damage is done and we might as well make some productive use of it. It beats me how you could have been offended by my statements regarding hearsay – you hadn’t even posted on this thread when I objected to its use as evidence.

“Hearsay evidence” is defined in my dictionary as “evidence based NOT on a witness’s personal knowledge but on matters told him by another.” It is not permitted in a court of law and I stand by my call to ban its use in this forum.

IMO, the senior members of this forum are fully capable of trying / experimenting / becoming expert in ANY aspect of video editing. If they wish to make critical comments on some aspect of video editing, they have a responsibility to fully test and document it first.

The Mpeg2 demonization issue is so out-of-control that I would not be surprised to see Mpeg2 blamed for hurricane Katrina or 9/11… IMO, there is no excuse for any senior forum member not to be fully conversant with ALL aspects of Mpeg2 editing because it is the format we produce when we burn DVDs. If a member doesn’t have the time or energy to test something himself, he needs to have the good judgement to rely on other member’s experiences.

Ggrussell,
You made the same comment several years ago, when I first posted resolution tests on re-edited, re-rendered mpeg2. I downloaded the Streamcrest Motion1 video at that time and have used it regularly for dynamic evaluations. If you have a link to a high definition version, please pass it on.

[heinz-oz]

Heinz-Oz,
... It beats me how you could have been offended by my statements regarding hearsay – you hadn’t even posted on this thread when I objected to its use as evidence. ....

I wasn't offended. Since sjj1805 stated a collectively held believe and was attacked for it, I chose to be a defender of his views because they coincide with mine. We have yet to see one person defending yours. No offence intended.

“Hearsay evidence” is defined in my dictionary as “evidence based NOT on a witness’s personal knowledge but on matters told him by another.” It is not permitted in a court of law and I stand by my call to ban its use in this forum.

Since your findings have not yet been proven to us (AFAIK we have yet to see your documentation of your successes), I would be doing exactly what you are trying to ban, if I were to tell people that mpeg editing is without problems.

... IMO, the senior members of this forum are fully capable of trying / experimenting / becoming expert in ANY aspect of video editing. If they wish to make critical comments on some aspect of video editing, they have a responsibility to fully test and document it first.

Do I understand you right?

You expect members of this board to run all sorts of "scientific" tests and document their findings, before they comment? If you chose to operate that way, fine. Very much appreciated. I for one haven't got the time to do that. I'm sure others would feel the same. After all, most of us have a daytime job which has nothing to do with the subject of this forum. That doesn't mean that we do not run the occassional test to see if we can reproduce a problem.

As far as I can tell, none of the moderators here, or indeed senior members as you like to call some, with one exception (you know who), have ever claimed to be experts and their advise to be understood as the only truth to the matter. After all, we are all just users of Ulead software and as such only offer to help others with advice based on our own experience and things we learned in the course of solving someones problems collectively. If you personally don't like that, tough. What do you want us to do about it? At least many of us, that includes sjj1805, myself and others, have frequently stated that mpeg editing seems to work for some. Because we have not seen it work ourselves, we chose to advise people against it.

You chose to advocate it because it works for you, fine, that is the spirit of this board. I haven't noticed anyone personally attacking you for your believes. It was only after you responded in a personalised manner to someones post, that things turned ugly

There would hardly be any response to any problem posted here, not only mpeg editing of course, if we were to make your approach compulsory. I for one have not been able to reproduce many of the so called "bugs" in PI 11. According to your opinion, that disqualifies me from trying to help users with these problems, you can't be serious?

Because I do not have a problem burning straight to disk from MSP 7 without the recommended work around of burning an ISO image first, I'm not qualified to try to help a user find the real cause for his problems. I'm better advised to use "hearsay" evidence stating that it is not advisable to burn straight to disk from ones editor?[

... If a member doesn’t have the time or energy to test something himself, he needs to have the good judgement to rely on other member’s experiences.

Isn't that the exact thing practised by most of us, but you want to ban from this forum? Once we hear evidence of other users not having had any issues with mpeg encoding, we will start to advise people accordingly. Just to take your word for it, I'm afraid, is not good enough for me.

This is the last thing I'm going to say to this subject. I have given the OP my response and urge others to do the same rather than continue this slanging match that doesn't solve nothing.