I recently edited the file uvs.ini to expose the Advanced button in the Compression tab of the Create Video File dialog box as suggested in a previous post and started to experiment with various settings.
To my surpise, I found that VideoStudio would not let me freely choose the values for the Maximum, Average and Minimum bitrate. Rather, VS let me set one and adjusted itself the other two. As a result, it used the value shown as “Video data rate” in the Create Video File dialog box as Maximum, 99% such a value as average and 70% as minimum. So, if the value shown as video data rate was 8000 kpbs, VS would use an average bitrate of 7920 kbps and a minimum birate of 5600 kbps to render mpeg files.
Such a narrow range of bitrates provides little benefit as regards compression relative to constant bitrate (CBR). Actually, I made a few tests and found VBR rendering with the previous values to produce files only 2.3% smaller than those obtained with CBR at 8000 kbps. This means you would only be able to put an additional 90 seconds on a 1-hour DVD --little gain to my mind.
Also, I found that shifting the quality slider in the Video Save Options box to 100 rather than using the default setting of 70 resulted in an even smaller gain (in the region of half a second per hour of video footage).
I read long ago in the old forum that the MPEG.Now encoder is a reduced version of the Mainconcept MPEG encoder. In fact, the dialog boxes in both are very similar (Ulead’s has fewer options for the obvious reason that the Mainconcept product alone costs $149). Also, Mainconcept’s encoder lets you freely choose your max, ave and min bitrates.
I have run a few tests with an MC enconder demo and found that the key to achieving useful compression ratios is using an average rate as close as possible to the visually acceptable level for the video concerned and choosing different enough max and min values to ensure that highly dynamic scenes get enough bandwidth and fairly still ones are not given unnecessary large amounts of precious bytes. So, a VBR setting of 8000 kbps as max, 6000 as ave and 2000 as min produced a file that was 21% more compact than one of the same clip rendered at CBR = 8000 kbps. That is a gain of more than 12 minutes per hour, which indeed seems substantial.
However, VideoStudio does not seem to let you choose the bitrate values required to save that amount of space. Or does it? If anybody has found a tweak to enable free adjustment of the three values, please let us all know. Otherwise, using VBR with VS will nearly always be a waste of time.
Thank you very much in advance to whoever may provide some feedback.
How "variable" is Variable Bit Rate in VideoStudio
Moderator: Ken Berry
-
alosada
Sorry, regarding this paragraph in my previous post I should say that VideoStudio does initially accept any Max. Ave and Min value as input provided Max does not exceed 8324 kbps and Ave and Min are not greater than Max and Ave, respectively. However, if you press OK to accept your settings and return to the Video Save Options dialog, pressing the Advanced button again reveals that VS has changed your desired values as described in the previous paragraph.To my surpise, I found that VideoStudio would not let me freely choose the values for the Maximum, Average and Minimum bitrate. Rather, VS let me set one and adjusted itself the other two. As a result, it used the value shown as “Video data rate” in the Create Video File dialog box as Maximum, 99% such a value as average and 70% as minimum. So, if the value shown as video data rate was 8000 kpbs, VS would use an average bitrate of 7920 kbps and a minimum birate of 5600 kbps to render mpeg files.
-
jchunter
Alosada,
Thank you for your quantitative measures of the net value of VBR in Video Studio. That is useful information for this forum.
I haven't done much experimentation with the Advanced Features because I also noticed that Video Studio "silently" changed many of my input values after I closed the dialog box. This is a bad habit that I have found in other areas of Video Studio.
I also have never seen any difference with the Quality slider but have not done any quantitative measurements.
Keep up the good work.
John
Thank you for your quantitative measures of the net value of VBR in Video Studio. That is useful information for this forum.
I haven't done much experimentation with the Advanced Features because I also noticed that Video Studio "silently" changed many of my input values after I closed the dialog box. This is a bad habit that I have found in other areas of Video Studio.
I also have never seen any difference with the Quality slider but have not done any quantitative measurements.
Keep up the good work.
John
-
alosada
Some of the forum users who have viewed this topic may have tried to check whether VS lets them modify the default VBR checkings only to find that their Video Save Options dialog box has no Advanced button.
Those interested can expose it by editing the file uvs.ini in their \Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Ulead Systems\Ulead VideoStudio\8.0 folder (don't forget to make a back-up copy of the file prior to editing, please).
Open uvs.ini in Notepad and add a new line (Advance=1) at the end of both the [MPEGVIO] and the [VIODRIVER] section. Save the file and open VideoStudio. There should be an Advanced button in the Compression tab of the Video Save Options dialog box. Press it, input some Max, Ave and Min value of your choice, press OK to go back to the previous dialog box and then the Advance button again to check whether VS has retained your selected values or adjusted them to its defaults.
Any feedback on this small test would be highly appreciated. If VS actually refuses to accept user-selected values for VBR rendering, then this feature is absolutely useless as a means to increase the amount of footage one can place in a DVD.
Please let us know about your outcome and see if this is actually a bug and should be reported as such to the Ulead people.
Antonio Losada
Those interested can expose it by editing the file uvs.ini in their \Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Ulead Systems\Ulead VideoStudio\8.0 folder (don't forget to make a back-up copy of the file prior to editing, please).
Open uvs.ini in Notepad and add a new line (Advance=1) at the end of both the [MPEGVIO] and the [VIODRIVER] section. Save the file and open VideoStudio. There should be an Advanced button in the Compression tab of the Video Save Options dialog box. Press it, input some Max, Ave and Min value of your choice, press OK to go back to the previous dialog box and then the Advance button again to check whether VS has retained your selected values or adjusted them to its defaults.
Any feedback on this small test would be highly appreciated. If VS actually refuses to accept user-selected values for VBR rendering, then this feature is absolutely useless as a means to increase the amount of footage one can place in a DVD.
Please let us know about your outcome and see if this is actually a bug and should be reported as such to the Ulead people.
Antonio Losada
I agree with your findings! I think there are other adjustments to allow this min/max span to be greater, but without a working knowledge of all the settings, it is just guesswork.
I posted a message that mentioned this behavior:
http://phpbb.ulead.com.tw/EN/viewtopic. ... highlight=
I use the ATI Tech Multimedia Center software to capture videos since it does allow you to set the target/max rates.
As long as I stick to SmartRender only to Save Video Files, the rates stay intact. Off course, SmartRender does not work reliably all the time and crashes. If I turn off SmartRender it then converts the bitrates to conform to that narrow spread which explains the reason I get such big files. The filesize grows by 25-30% or more! Even when you tell it to convert “same as project settings” it applies those settings.
With the ATI MMC settings at target=4mpbs and Max=7.2mbps, I had bitrates typically from 1.5mbps to 7.2mpbs which is similar to a commercially produced DVD. UVS converted those bitrates close to the self applied average setting of 5mbps.
Why have a Variable bitrate at all if it is not Variable?
Why have a "Same as Project Settings" if it ignores it?
A famous automaton uttered these words; “Need More Input”!
Rhonda
I posted a message that mentioned this behavior:
http://phpbb.ulead.com.tw/EN/viewtopic. ... highlight=
I use the ATI Tech Multimedia Center software to capture videos since it does allow you to set the target/max rates.
As long as I stick to SmartRender only to Save Video Files, the rates stay intact. Off course, SmartRender does not work reliably all the time and crashes. If I turn off SmartRender it then converts the bitrates to conform to that narrow spread which explains the reason I get such big files. The filesize grows by 25-30% or more! Even when you tell it to convert “same as project settings” it applies those settings.
With the ATI MMC settings at target=4mpbs and Max=7.2mbps, I had bitrates typically from 1.5mbps to 7.2mpbs which is similar to a commercially produced DVD. UVS converted those bitrates close to the self applied average setting of 5mbps.
Why have a Variable bitrate at all if it is not Variable?
Why have a "Same as Project Settings" if it ignores it?
A famous automaton uttered these words; “Need More Input”!
Rhonda
-
Rends
alosada,
well if VBR can save much space is a question of your source video file.
To examples:
First: i choose one of the shipped videoclips (V17) and save it one time as VBR8264Kbs and one time as constant videoclipflie with 8264KBs.
The result is similar to what you described wich means that the VBR file is only a few percent smaller than the constant file one.
If you have a look at the sourcevideo you will see that there is a lot movement in it.
BUT VBR can only save space on parts witht less or none changes frome frame to frame where CBR is wasting space. Regulary you will have videos with parts of lot of mevements and parts with lesse movements.
Example:
I saved my selfmade logo videoclip with same settings wich shows a moving text on a still background.Witht Constant settings VS8 created a 19 MB big file but with VBR it was only 10 MB big.
So VBR can make a big difference! From my own expirience i can say that if i saved captured movies from TV on a DVD that VBR saved up to 30-40 percents of diskspace compared to CBR .
Rends
well if VBR can save much space is a question of your source video file.
To examples:
First: i choose one of the shipped videoclips (V17) and save it one time as VBR8264Kbs and one time as constant videoclipflie with 8264KBs.
The result is similar to what you described wich means that the VBR file is only a few percent smaller than the constant file one.
If you have a look at the sourcevideo you will see that there is a lot movement in it.
BUT VBR can only save space on parts witht less or none changes frome frame to frame where CBR is wasting space. Regulary you will have videos with parts of lot of mevements and parts with lesse movements.
Example:
I saved my selfmade logo videoclip with same settings wich shows a moving text on a still background.Witht Constant settings VS8 created a 19 MB big file but with VBR it was only 10 MB big.
So VBR can make a big difference! From my own expirience i can say that if i saved captured movies from TV on a DVD that VBR saved up to 30-40 percents of diskspace compared to CBR .
Rends
-
alosada
Thank you, Rends, for your comments.
To what extent a video can be compressed with VBR certainly depends on how fast or slow the action in it is. I must admit that my initial tests were probably as biassed as yours involving rendering the V17 sample file. In order to save time, I probably rendered too short a file to derive any valid conclusions.
I am doing further testing now with a clip lasting about 5 minutes and containing both “fast” action (children playing about with lots of amateurish zooming and panning) and people peacefully talking at a table after lunch. This is more of an “average” video than was the short clip I previously used. I plan to use at least 20 different compression schemes involving both CBR and VBR and hope I'll be able to complete them over the weekend.
In the meantime, I would like to know whether the 30-40% savings in space you mention in relation to TV captures were obtained with VideoStudio 7 or 8.
Could you also please tell me the exact Maximum, Average and Minimum values you see in VS8 if you choose 8264 as VBR and then click the Advanced button in the dialog box? Please expose the button first as described in my previous post if you haven’t yet.
Thanks in advance.
Antonio
To what extent a video can be compressed with VBR certainly depends on how fast or slow the action in it is. I must admit that my initial tests were probably as biassed as yours involving rendering the V17 sample file. In order to save time, I probably rendered too short a file to derive any valid conclusions.
I am doing further testing now with a clip lasting about 5 minutes and containing both “fast” action (children playing about with lots of amateurish zooming and panning) and people peacefully talking at a table after lunch. This is more of an “average” video than was the short clip I previously used. I plan to use at least 20 different compression schemes involving both CBR and VBR and hope I'll be able to complete them over the weekend.
In the meantime, I would like to know whether the 30-40% savings in space you mention in relation to TV captures were obtained with VideoStudio 7 or 8.
Could you also please tell me the exact Maximum, Average and Minimum values you see in VS8 if you choose 8264 as VBR and then click the Advanced button in the dialog box? Please expose the button first as described in my previous post if you haven’t yet.
Thanks in advance.
Antonio
The Average Bitrate
For VBR encoding, encoders usually allow the following (among other things) -- min/max/avg bitrates
If all goes as planned, the AVERAGE bitrate should be maintained throughout the entire encoded video (allowing the encoder to drop to as low as the MIN for easy scenes, and to go as high as the MAX for harder scenes). Of course, encoders do go beyond the outer limits (min and max) on occasion, but in general it will attempt to stay inside the "boundaries", and also try to maintain the AVERAGE bitrate.
Now, given the same AVERAGE VBR bitrate and a constant bitrate (for CBR encoding), the resulting files sizes should not be much different at all between the VBR and CBR encodes. in other words, if you encoded something at CBR 6000kbps and VBR with an average of 6000kbps, the resulting filesizes should be close in size.
Because Ulead's implementation of the bitrate on the normal screen (i.e. not the Advanced screens) only shows one bitrate, they are using that as the MAX (as far as I can tell). So that's probably why you see slightly smaller sizes in a VBR encode vs a CBR encode.
If all goes as planned, the AVERAGE bitrate should be maintained throughout the entire encoded video (allowing the encoder to drop to as low as the MIN for easy scenes, and to go as high as the MAX for harder scenes). Of course, encoders do go beyond the outer limits (min and max) on occasion, but in general it will attempt to stay inside the "boundaries", and also try to maintain the AVERAGE bitrate.
Now, given the same AVERAGE VBR bitrate and a constant bitrate (for CBR encoding), the resulting files sizes should not be much different at all between the VBR and CBR encodes. in other words, if you encoded something at CBR 6000kbps and VBR with an average of 6000kbps, the resulting filesizes should be close in size.
Because Ulead's implementation of the bitrate on the normal screen (i.e. not the Advanced screens) only shows one bitrate, they are using that as the MAX (as far as I can tell). So that's probably why you see slightly smaller sizes in a VBR encode vs a CBR encode.
George
-
maddrummer3301
- Posts: 2507
- Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:24 pm
- Location: US
Hi,
I would like to share my experience with using the ATI software to record
and import into ulead products for editing. Hopefully to help others time etc.
I've been using the ATI software/hardware chipsets to record and import
into VS or MF for a few years.
Usually I would record at Constant bit_rate to achieve the correct file size/quality in accordance to the length of the video.
When importing these constant bit rates files VS or MF3 reads their properties correctly and you can edit and smart-render them.
When recording using the ATI software in VBR mode is quite different and can cause VS or MF3 to crash.
When importing a VBR file into VS or MF3 you need to know the average
target bit rate the file was originally recorded at.
If you record with a setting of Max 8000+kbs with a target of 5000kbs then
Ulead reads the file(s) as 8000kbs. Then Ulead sets the
average_video_bit_rate
at approx 7920kbs which is the wrong setting.
That is why the file estimation window grows in size. The file size estimation window grows because the project properties aren't equal
to the source properties. Then if smart-render is enable it's uh-oh time.
This should give one a clue that something is wrong. If you import a 3.5 gig file and choose same as project settings and the file size has increased alot then either the file isn't mpeg2/dvd compliant or the project properties don't really match the files properties.
Anyway, if one plans to record VBR in other than ulead software that you can adjust the max/avg/min then write them down and manually
adjust the correct average_bit_rate in VS or MF3.
This is only if you plan to edit the video or re-render it which is usually the case.
ATI Settings: Variable_Bit_Rate CLOSED GOP'S.
Max bit rate=8000kbs, Target bit rate 5000kbs, mpg audio 256kbs.
Ulead will read file as Variable 8000kbs (Total project increases).
Set Ulead Project Properties to:
Variable 5500kbs video_bit_rate in main window.
Note: Then if you look in Advanced the average will read 5000kbs.
This stopped crashes when rendering files imported from ATI recorder that
were recorded in variable_bit_rate.
MD
I would like to share my experience with using the ATI software to record
and import into ulead products for editing. Hopefully to help others time etc.
I've been using the ATI software/hardware chipsets to record and import
into VS or MF for a few years.
Usually I would record at Constant bit_rate to achieve the correct file size/quality in accordance to the length of the video.
When importing these constant bit rates files VS or MF3 reads their properties correctly and you can edit and smart-render them.
When recording using the ATI software in VBR mode is quite different and can cause VS or MF3 to crash.
When importing a VBR file into VS or MF3 you need to know the average
target bit rate the file was originally recorded at.
If you record with a setting of Max 8000+kbs with a target of 5000kbs then
Ulead reads the file(s) as 8000kbs. Then Ulead sets the
average_video_bit_rate
at approx 7920kbs which is the wrong setting.
That is why the file estimation window grows in size. The file size estimation window grows because the project properties aren't equal
to the source properties. Then if smart-render is enable it's uh-oh time.
This should give one a clue that something is wrong. If you import a 3.5 gig file and choose same as project settings and the file size has increased alot then either the file isn't mpeg2/dvd compliant or the project properties don't really match the files properties.
Anyway, if one plans to record VBR in other than ulead software that you can adjust the max/avg/min then write them down and manually
adjust the correct average_bit_rate in VS or MF3.
This is only if you plan to edit the video or re-render it which is usually the case.
ATI Settings: Variable_Bit_Rate CLOSED GOP'S.
Max bit rate=8000kbs, Target bit rate 5000kbs, mpg audio 256kbs.
Ulead will read file as Variable 8000kbs (Total project increases).
Set Ulead Project Properties to:
Variable 5500kbs video_bit_rate in main window.
Note: Then if you look in Advanced the average will read 5000kbs.
This stopped crashes when rendering files imported from ATI recorder that
were recorded in variable_bit_rate.
MD
-
Rends
alosada,
well i didn´t test much but i recorded some small videoclips from TV.
VBR saved from 2 up to 20 percent of space . Guess it´s all a question of movement, frame or field order.
What i was saying earlier that VBR saved up to 30-40 percent wasn´t tested by myself but a comparison between the VS8 DVDmpeg2 setting saving templates (one hour at 7000KBs) and what i was able to burn on a single DVD using 8264KBs VBR.
well i didn´t test much but i recorded some small videoclips from TV.
VBR saved from 2 up to 20 percent of space . Guess it´s all a question of movement, frame or field order.
What i was saying earlier that VBR saved up to 30-40 percent wasn´t tested by myself but a comparison between the VS8 DVDmpeg2 setting saving templates (one hour at 7000KBs) and what i was able to burn on a single DVD using 8264KBs VBR.
-
alosada
Thank you for you new post, Rends.
I gather you have used VideoStudio 8 (not 7) for all these tests and compared the compression efficiency of rendering at CBR = 7000 versus VBR = 8264. Is this correct?
Would you (and any other forum visitors willing to) please check what Maximum, Average and Minimum values does VideoStudio display if you input VBR= 8264 in the dialog box and then click the Advanced button and Video Settings tab. I need reassurance that I am not the sole VS user who is seing what I see when I do that.
Thank you all in advance.
Antonio
I gather you have used VideoStudio 8 (not 7) for all these tests and compared the compression efficiency of rendering at CBR = 7000 versus VBR = 8264. Is this correct?
Would you (and any other forum visitors willing to) please check what Maximum, Average and Minimum values does VideoStudio display if you input VBR= 8264 in the dialog box and then click the Advanced button and Video Settings tab. I need reassurance that I am not the sole VS user who is seing what I see when I do that.
Thank you all in advance.
Antonio
-
Rends
Yes i´m using VS8 .
Well I only mentioned the VS8" DVD 7000KBs save setting template" because it´s says that you will be able to burn 1 hour of video on a DVD if you use this setting. I never burned with this settings to make a real comparison.
Normaly i burn at 8264 VBR because it´s the max quality you can get with PCM sound and i was able to burn something more than 1 hour with this settings. That´s the reason why i was saying that i was able to burn 30-40 percent more than CBR. I realy don´t know if you can only burn 1 hour of video with 7000 KBs CBR or if it could be more.
To answer your last question check this image:
Is this what you are talking about?
If you want to go into deeper investigations i suggest to download bitrate viewer wich analyze your videoclips very fast.
http://cga25.tfh-berlin.de/downloads/bv.zip
Here is another example :
I used V01, V17, v03 and V18 and created a viideoclip with the settings you find in the screenshot.
With CBR VS8 created a 35,2 MB file
and
with VBR VS8 created a 32,8 MB file
So when using VBR Videostudio8 saved nearly 2,5MB for a 30 sec videoclip.
Here is the bitrateviewer comparison:
The top one shows the CBR videoclip and the lower one the VBR clip.
Funny enough you will see that both videoclips have peaks above 8264.
The CBR8264 clip has an average use of 8092KBs and the VBR file about 7464KBs.
Well don´t ask me why the CBR file isn´t realy a constantstream file lol .
Rends
Well I only mentioned the VS8" DVD 7000KBs save setting template" because it´s says that you will be able to burn 1 hour of video on a DVD if you use this setting. I never burned with this settings to make a real comparison.
Normaly i burn at 8264 VBR because it´s the max quality you can get with PCM sound and i was able to burn something more than 1 hour with this settings. That´s the reason why i was saying that i was able to burn 30-40 percent more than CBR. I realy don´t know if you can only burn 1 hour of video with 7000 KBs CBR or if it could be more.
To answer your last question check this image:
Is this what you are talking about?
If you want to go into deeper investigations i suggest to download bitrate viewer wich analyze your videoclips very fast.
http://cga25.tfh-berlin.de/downloads/bv.zip
Here is another example :
I used V01, V17, v03 and V18 and created a viideoclip with the settings you find in the screenshot.
With CBR VS8 created a 35,2 MB file
and
with VBR VS8 created a 32,8 MB file
So when using VBR Videostudio8 saved nearly 2,5MB for a 30 sec videoclip.
Here is the bitrateviewer comparison:
The top one shows the CBR videoclip and the lower one the VBR clip.
Funny enough you will see that both videoclips have peaks above 8264.
The CBR8264 clip has an average use of 8092KBs and the VBR file about 7464KBs.
Well don´t ask me why the CBR file isn´t realy a constantstream file lol .
Rends
-
alosada
Thank you again, Rends. In fact, I have been using Bitrate Viewer to compare the results of my renderings, which I am now about to complete. Seemingly, using CBR never gives you a “flat” bitrate curve unless your video contains the same frame throughout (e.g. a render of a single still picture).
The dialog box attached to your post is that for direct mpeg file capture. The one I meant was that for Create Video File box. You can reach it by selecting Share > Create Video File > Custom if you have previously inserted any clips in the timeline. Once there, click the Options button and then the Compression tab. Next, choose PAL DVD as “Media Type”, Variable as “Video data rate” and type 8264 in the box beside it. Finally, click the Advanced button, followed by the Video Settings tab. Do the values you see coincide with these?
· Maximum = 8264
· Average = 8181
· Minimum = 5784
The dialog box attached to your post is that for direct mpeg file capture. The one I meant was that for Create Video File box. You can reach it by selecting Share > Create Video File > Custom if you have previously inserted any clips in the timeline. Once there, click the Options button and then the Compression tab. Next, choose PAL DVD as “Media Type”, Variable as “Video data rate” and type 8264 in the box beside it. Finally, click the Advanced button, followed by the Video Settings tab. Do the values you see coincide with these?
· Maximum = 8264
· Average = 8181
· Minimum = 5784
I activated the Advanced button for DVD MovieFactory, and I get the same settings (min/max/avg). But if you change them, then go out and back in, it resets them to the same numbers. Maybe opening the Advanced button doesn't truly let you make the changes to the behind-the-scenes settings?alosada wrote: · Maximum = 8264
· Average = 8181
· Minimum = 5784
George