I just produced a (virtual HD disk) HD folder with Video Studio 10+ and Movie Factory 5.
With VS10+ creating the Disk Folders with audio set to Dolby, the creation took 3 to 4 times longer than the same in MF5. The reason for the longer time is VS10+ is rerendering the file to produce Dolby Digital. Doing Dolby some way creates a shudder in the play back
MF5 in the default mode creates a video file with mpg2 audio and doesn't shudder when played back. When I rerendered the file (smart render unchecked) I got a shudder in the same place that the VS10+ file gave me.
My guess that both programs when rerendering the file creates a shudder in the playback.
I'm still trying to figure out how to get MF5 to create Dolby Digital audio.
Video stutter authoring HD-DVDs with Video Studio 10
Moderator: Ken Berry
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jchunter
MD,
Interesting. Could be padded... My .evo file size was 950,848 KB and my mpeg HD source file was 312,958KB. Is there a possibility that the mpeg2 program stream is converted to Transport stream to guarantee error-free delivery on the HD-DVD?
Google found this:
"EnVideo is software for viewing videos of high-end visualizations over the Internet or intranet. It uses compact .EVO files created in EnSight. The .EVO format runs Windows, and *NIX computers. EnVideo .EVO files are smaller than .AVI files and about the same size as .MPEGs. The Evo Library is a free API to create these video files, however most are created by CEI's EnSight application or CEI's EnLiten application."
This doesn't tell me much...
Terry,
I created my evo file with mpeg layer 2 audio - exactly the same as recorded initially in the HC1... it still shudders.
Interesting. Could be padded... My .evo file size was 950,848 KB and my mpeg HD source file was 312,958KB. Is there a possibility that the mpeg2 program stream is converted to Transport stream to guarantee error-free delivery on the HD-DVD?
Google found this:
"EnVideo is software for viewing videos of high-end visualizations over the Internet or intranet. It uses compact .EVO files created in EnSight. The .EVO format runs Windows, and *NIX computers. EnVideo .EVO files are smaller than .AVI files and about the same size as .MPEGs. The Evo Library is a free API to create these video files, however most are created by CEI's EnSight application or CEI's EnLiten application."
This doesn't tell me much...
Terry,
I created my evo file with mpeg layer 2 audio - exactly the same as recorded initially in the HC1... it still shudders.
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maddrummer3301
- Posts: 2507
- Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:24 pm
- Location: US
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Joe Linn
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maddrummer3301
- Posts: 2507
- Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:24 pm
- Location: US
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jchunter
I did a few more tests and re-tests on displaying HD from a conventional DVD platter.
As a result, I have to correct something that I wrote earlier, when I said that my AVLP2 could display Mpeg2 HDV 1920x1080 @25Mbps from an ordinary DVD when written as a data file. It can, but does so at a lower frame rate, apparently dropping frames to keep up with the bitrate, which is too-high for the DVD media. However, it can play that format from its external hard disk, which supports a much higher data transfer rate.
However, my PC can playback HDv@25Mbps from a DVD disk through MPC perfectly - maybe because it reads the file way ahead into memory prior to playback...
Most of my HD work has relied on the Divx codec to produce HD video files 1920x1080 @ 8Mbps, written as data files on ordinary DVDs, which DO playback perfectly on the AVLP2, with a lower bitrate requirement.
This brings me back to what I feel is the fundamental question: Are we going to playback our HD video, more compressed, from conventional DVD media with link players (like the AVLP2) or are we going to wait five years for affordable HD DVD products and media?
Edit: In 5 years, the Sigma chips (used in the LP2) will be faster and cheaper, as will memory chips. I expect to see Link players under 100$ in that time frame.
As a result, I have to correct something that I wrote earlier, when I said that my AVLP2 could display Mpeg2 HDV 1920x1080 @25Mbps from an ordinary DVD when written as a data file. It can, but does so at a lower frame rate, apparently dropping frames to keep up with the bitrate, which is too-high for the DVD media. However, it can play that format from its external hard disk, which supports a much higher data transfer rate.
However, my PC can playback HDv@25Mbps from a DVD disk through MPC perfectly - maybe because it reads the file way ahead into memory prior to playback...
Most of my HD work has relied on the Divx codec to produce HD video files 1920x1080 @ 8Mbps, written as data files on ordinary DVDs, which DO playback perfectly on the AVLP2, with a lower bitrate requirement.
This brings me back to what I feel is the fundamental question: Are we going to playback our HD video, more compressed, from conventional DVD media with link players (like the AVLP2) or are we going to wait five years for affordable HD DVD products and media?
Edit: In 5 years, the Sigma chips (used in the LP2) will be faster and cheaper, as will memory chips. I expect to see Link players under 100$ in that time frame.
When I created the HD DVD folders in MF5 with default settings the video didn't shudder. I didn't think to produce the file in VS10+ with the default settings (MPEG audio). I just completed doing just that with the shudder effect. For some reason VS10 rerendered the whole file, I tried different settings to no avail.
Change parameters to LPCM audio and created the file, this time it did a smart render and the shudder was gone.
I just don't know about all this cutting edge stuff, I am going to start dragging my feet on the new stuff untill everything gets stable.
Change parameters to LPCM audio and created the file, this time it did a smart render and the shudder was gone.
I just don't know about all this cutting edge stuff, I am going to start dragging my feet on the new stuff untill everything gets stable.
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Joe Linn
Regarding affordability, many of the folks on AV Science are writing 30-40 minutes of HD video to a standard DVD with perfect results. I consider that quite affordable. Granted, it would be nice to write more than that on a single platter, but for now I think it is pretty good.
Regarding the re-encoding, I did a lot of experimenting finding out how to get Video Studio NOT to re-encode the video. I found that if you chop anything off the beginning or end, it will re-encode the whole thing. If you feed it video in a format it can accept, check the option not to re-encode, and don't try and chop anything off using the authoring screen, it skips the re-encode step and goes directly to the multiplexing step. Someone on AV Science confirmed what you said. When it re-rendered his video, he got the skipping. When it didn't go through the re-render step, his video was fine. That is also a good way to isolate where the problem is occurring. There is no skipping in the input mpeg file. Running it through VS10 where the only thing happening is that it is getting muxed and turned into an EVO file, I get skipping on the EVO file when played from hard disk. When I burn it to DVD, I get the exact same skipping in the exact same places. That indicates there is a problem in the multiplexing step.
The skipping I have seen isn't constant. I only see it when there is a big change from one frame to the next, for example someone walking close to the camera with a big umbrella that covers 1/3 of the frame. The only time I got a constant jitter was when I tried "frame based." I make sure not to use that. In scenes with a lot of motion I might see 2-3 skips in a minute. In scenes with less motion, the video plays perfectly, either from the hard drive or from DVD on the Toshiba. I had one entire 10 minute video render without a single skip. The entire thing plays perfectly on the Toshiba or from my hard drive. It looks great! I'm not aware of having done anything differently while editing, so I am guessing it is because there isn't much motion. It was some of my first test video from when I got the camera. It contains lots of flowers and landscapes that don't move a lot. I still am trying to figure out if I did anything differently in the editing step that might explain things.
The DVDs I have been using are rated for 8x speed, so I doubt that the problem lies with the 3x DVD speed, especially in view of that fact that the result looks identical whether played from my hard drive on the PC or played from a DVD on the Toshiba. Also, since I have had one perfect video and many people on AV Science have had perfect results, I believe it can be done. Not everyone agrees. That's fine. We've all stated our opinions and I don't think we'll reach agreement by debating it. Let's focus on trying to find solutions. This is something that will be beneficial to a lot of people if we can make it work correctly. Let's see if we can do that. For now, let's see if we can fix the problem in the EVO file. The issue certainly will come up as HD-DVD burners become available and people try to burn those same EVO files to real HD-DVD.
I already have the Toshiba player. If I can burn 1/2 hour of video from my Sony camera to a standard DVD and play it through the Toshiba, I think that will be a great solution for now. I've had one perfect disk, so I have seen how good it can look. Other folks on AV Science are very happy with the results they are getting. My other disks aren't bad, there are just these occasional skips. There are other stretches where everything is perfect. Let's try and make things work.
Joe
Regarding the re-encoding, I did a lot of experimenting finding out how to get Video Studio NOT to re-encode the video. I found that if you chop anything off the beginning or end, it will re-encode the whole thing. If you feed it video in a format it can accept, check the option not to re-encode, and don't try and chop anything off using the authoring screen, it skips the re-encode step and goes directly to the multiplexing step. Someone on AV Science confirmed what you said. When it re-rendered his video, he got the skipping. When it didn't go through the re-render step, his video was fine. That is also a good way to isolate where the problem is occurring. There is no skipping in the input mpeg file. Running it through VS10 where the only thing happening is that it is getting muxed and turned into an EVO file, I get skipping on the EVO file when played from hard disk. When I burn it to DVD, I get the exact same skipping in the exact same places. That indicates there is a problem in the multiplexing step.
The skipping I have seen isn't constant. I only see it when there is a big change from one frame to the next, for example someone walking close to the camera with a big umbrella that covers 1/3 of the frame. The only time I got a constant jitter was when I tried "frame based." I make sure not to use that. In scenes with a lot of motion I might see 2-3 skips in a minute. In scenes with less motion, the video plays perfectly, either from the hard drive or from DVD on the Toshiba. I had one entire 10 minute video render without a single skip. The entire thing plays perfectly on the Toshiba or from my hard drive. It looks great! I'm not aware of having done anything differently while editing, so I am guessing it is because there isn't much motion. It was some of my first test video from when I got the camera. It contains lots of flowers and landscapes that don't move a lot. I still am trying to figure out if I did anything differently in the editing step that might explain things.
The DVDs I have been using are rated for 8x speed, so I doubt that the problem lies with the 3x DVD speed, especially in view of that fact that the result looks identical whether played from my hard drive on the PC or played from a DVD on the Toshiba. Also, since I have had one perfect video and many people on AV Science have had perfect results, I believe it can be done. Not everyone agrees. That's fine. We've all stated our opinions and I don't think we'll reach agreement by debating it. Let's focus on trying to find solutions. This is something that will be beneficial to a lot of people if we can make it work correctly. Let's see if we can do that. For now, let's see if we can fix the problem in the EVO file. The issue certainly will come up as HD-DVD burners become available and people try to burn those same EVO files to real HD-DVD.
I already have the Toshiba player. If I can burn 1/2 hour of video from my Sony camera to a standard DVD and play it through the Toshiba, I think that will be a great solution for now. I've had one perfect disk, so I have seen how good it can look. Other folks on AV Science are very happy with the results they are getting. My other disks aren't bad, there are just these occasional skips. There are other stretches where everything is perfect. Let's try and make things work.
Joe
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jchunter
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Joe Linn
I've been continuing to work on this and I've made progress. I'm posting my results in case anyone else is attempting this and might be helped by what I've found.
I can now make an HD-DVD with no video stuttering. The key seems to be running the video through Womble before feeding it to Video Studio. That is the procedure people have been using in the thread I referenced at AV Science.
If I create an HDV transport stream with Media Studio Pro, use Womble to convert it to a program stream, and use Video Studio to build the HD-DVD file structure, I end up with a DVD that works perfectly, either when viewing the EVO file directly from the hard drive or when burning to a standard DVD and playing on the Toshiba HD-DVD player.
If I create a program stream directly with Media Studio Pro, or create a transport stream then use Media Studio Pro to convert it to a program stream, I end up with stuttering EVO files after creating the HD-DVD files with Video Studio.
I turned on messages in VideoLan when playing the EVO files from hard disk to see if I get a better idea what the problem is. When playing EVO files without skipping (those created from Womble input), the only message I see in the VideoLan message box is "decoded 105/105 pictures" repeated over and over.
When I play one of the EVO files that skips, in addition to the "decoded 105/105 pictures", whenever there is a skip, I see the message "dts!=current_pts".
When I play either of the input files with VideoLan: either the one created by Womble or the one created by Media Studio Pro, I don't see any error messages, just "decoded 105/105 pictures" repeated over and over.
The MPEG input files from Womble and Media Studio Pro have exactly the same settings: mpeg 2, CBR 250000, upper frame first, mpeg2 audio 384kbps so it doesn't appear to be a difference in the settings.
I'm suspecting there must be some incompatability between the MPEG files created by Media Studio Pro and what Video Studio is looking for to build HD-DVD. At least I have found a procedure that allows me to create perfect HD-DVDs on standard DVD. That solves my current need. Hopefully some future maintenance to either MSP or VS will fix the incompatability so I can eliminate the extra step of running the video through Womble. Many thanks to the people who offered help rather than insisting it couldn't be done.
Joe
I can now make an HD-DVD with no video stuttering. The key seems to be running the video through Womble before feeding it to Video Studio. That is the procedure people have been using in the thread I referenced at AV Science.
If I create an HDV transport stream with Media Studio Pro, use Womble to convert it to a program stream, and use Video Studio to build the HD-DVD file structure, I end up with a DVD that works perfectly, either when viewing the EVO file directly from the hard drive or when burning to a standard DVD and playing on the Toshiba HD-DVD player.
If I create a program stream directly with Media Studio Pro, or create a transport stream then use Media Studio Pro to convert it to a program stream, I end up with stuttering EVO files after creating the HD-DVD files with Video Studio.
I turned on messages in VideoLan when playing the EVO files from hard disk to see if I get a better idea what the problem is. When playing EVO files without skipping (those created from Womble input), the only message I see in the VideoLan message box is "decoded 105/105 pictures" repeated over and over.
When I play one of the EVO files that skips, in addition to the "decoded 105/105 pictures", whenever there is a skip, I see the message "dts!=current_pts".
When I play either of the input files with VideoLan: either the one created by Womble or the one created by Media Studio Pro, I don't see any error messages, just "decoded 105/105 pictures" repeated over and over.
The MPEG input files from Womble and Media Studio Pro have exactly the same settings: mpeg 2, CBR 250000, upper frame first, mpeg2 audio 384kbps so it doesn't appear to be a difference in the settings.
I'm suspecting there must be some incompatability between the MPEG files created by Media Studio Pro and what Video Studio is looking for to build HD-DVD. At least I have found a procedure that allows me to create perfect HD-DVDs on standard DVD. That solves my current need. Hopefully some future maintenance to either MSP or VS will fix the incompatability so I can eliminate the extra step of running the video through Womble. Many thanks to the people who offered help rather than insisting it couldn't be done.
Joe