Video stutter authoring HD-DVDs with Video Studio 10

Joe Linn · Post by **Joe Linn** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:34 pm

Although HD-DVD writers are not available yet, if you create HD-DVD folders with Video Studio 10 or Movie Factory 5, add a VIDEO_TS folder and burn them to a standard DVD, the Toshiba HD-DVD player will recognize them as HD-DVD and play them. There has been a lot of information about that in the following thread at the AV Science Forum: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=667462

I have been using this procedure to burn HDV video I have taken with the Sony HC1 HD camera to DVD. I get a video stutter several times a minute. The picture will freeze for about 1/10 second then jump to where it would have been without the freeze. There is no disruption to the audio. I have mainly noticed it during scenes where the change from one frame to the next is substantial - for instance a zoom or someone walking in near the camera with an umbrella. I'm not sure if it is more likely to occur when more bits are required to descirbe the change between frames, or if it the skips are happening all the time but are just more noticeable when there is more motion.

The video I have been using is edited with Media Studio Pro 8 and is mpg CBR 25000 Kbps. I can use VideoLan to view the input file. There is no stutter. When I use VideoLan to view the EVO file, the stutter is there. HD-DVD uses EVO (enhanced video object) files rather than the VOB (video object) files used by standard DVDs. I tried both with and without the option telling VS10 not to re-encode compliant files. This causes Video Studio to skip the "converting title" step and jump right to the muxing step. The stutter is present either way. This seems to isolate the problem to something occuring in the step that creates the EVO file. It would also eliminate problems with burning to DVD or the Toshiba reading HD-DVD from a standard DVD.

I have also used video captured from HBO and gotten the same problem.

Other people at AV Science are creating HD-DVDs using HDV files from the Sony camcorder without problems. One person said he had the stutter when VS10 re-encodes the file but had no problem when it doesn't. I have the problem either way.

Am I doing someting wrong? Is there something I could do differently to get rid of the skipping? Would it be better to re-render the input video at a higher bit rate? A lower bit rate? Variable bit rate instead of constant bit rate?

I'd be grateful for any help.

Thanks

Joe

THoff · Post by **THoff** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:43 pm

HD-DVD requires approximately three times the bandwidth as regular DVD, and by putting that on regular DVD media, you must spin the disk three times as fast and still read it reliably, deal with errors etc. It's the same problem that you get when you put DVD content on a CD.

Basically, I don't believe it's a valid test or indicative of UVS 10's ability to create HD-DVD disks.

maddrummer3301 · Post by **maddrummer3301** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:14 pm

Joe Linn · Post by **Joe Linn** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:05 pm

My fault. I should have been more clear. I have been using VideoLan to play the EVO files directly from the hard disk before I ever burn them to DVD. They skip in exactly the same spots as when I burn a DVD and play it in the Toshiba player. That leads me to believe the problem is with the encoding to the EVO file and not the reading of the DVD.

I'll try pulling down the messages box from VideoLan when I get home & see what that tells me. Thanks for the suggestion.

I've been trying to figure if creating the original file at a lower or higher bit rate might help. On the one hand, if I am hitting some sort of ceiling in the creation of the EVO file a lower bit rate might help. On the other hand, since the video doesn't get re-encoded for the EVO file perhaps a higher bit rate would result in an EVO file with a higher bit rate that is better able to handle bigger changes on screen.

Knowing that other people are doing this successfully makes me suspect that I have something set wrong - either in the way I generate the original video file or in the HD-DVD authoring settings of VS10. I'm trying to figure what knobs to twist to improve the result.

Thanks

Joe

jchunter · Post by **jchunter** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:06 am

Joe,
At this time, many software video players are having difficulty playing back HD video files. So your problem could be in the player rather than the video file. WMP works poorly. I used to use VLC but it went south after the last update and now stutters badly. I found that Media Player Classic (v.6.4.8.

works the best right now for HD playback.

BTW, if you want to put a lot of HD video on a conventional DVD platter, you can use the Divx codec to compress HD video to about 30% of the size of Mpeg2 HDV and then burn it on a DVD as a DATA file. You can play this with one of the "Link DVD players" (IODATA AVLP2) and display it on your HDTV thru component video cables. The Divx video at 8Mbps looks every bit as good as the Mpeg2 at 25Mbps.

Joe Linn · Post by **Joe Linn** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 5:52 pm

jchunter wrote:Joe,
At this time, many software video players are having difficulty playing back HD video files. So your problem could be in the player rather than the video file.

Thanks,

I thought of that, but I compared playback on the Toshiba HD-DVD player to the playback of the EVO file from hard disk through VLC and they skipped in EXACTLY the same places. This leads me to believe that there is a problem with the actual EVO files that are getting built. The only reason I tried playing the EVO file on the PC was an attempt to diagnose why the DVDs were skipping on the Toshiba. My first thought was that it was the media. I tried DVD+R and DVD-R. I tried various brands. All skipped in exactly the same place. I thought perhaps that the bit rate couldn't keep up using playing HD from DVDs so I tried playing the EVO files through the PC. In each case, regardless of the media or whethr I was playing it on the Toshiba or the PC, the skipping occurred in exactly the same spots.

To further narrow things down, I figured out how to prevent VS10 from re-encoding the file - to just mux it instead. I viewed the input file. It didn't skip. I had VS10 mux it into an EVO file. It skipped.

Other people on AV Science are having good success with no skipping, so I figure I must be doing something wrong - either with the way I am generating the file I input into VS10 or in the settings within VS10.

tyamada · Post by **tyamada** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:18 pm

From your posts I assume you are creating your files in VS10+. From what I read about creating a disk image or HD DVD folders most of the folks on the other forum were using Movie Factory 5. You might want to try MF5 for your
disk creation.

jchunter · Post by **jchunter** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:37 am

Joe,
I did not read the entire AVS forum thread, but I think it discusses putting HD Mpeg2 video on a standard DVD as a DATA FILE, which can be read as a DATA file by a computer or one of the Link players (e.g., AVLP2) in full HD resolution. I did not know that the Toshiba HD-DVD monster could also read data files from standard DVD disks.

When I do this, I just create an Mpeg2 HD video file from my edited HD video project and burn that on a DVD using Roxio or any other DVD writer. The IOData AVLP2 plays that back on my HDTV set in full high definition.

I would not use Video Studio to burn data files. I'm not sure it can be fooled into creating HD menus in the DVD folder. Moreover, if you are not controlling the video properties precisely, 10+ could be doing unexpected things to your video...

To debug your specific problem, I would need to know your EXACT workflow in VS10+.

As I said earlier, if you want to get more than 20 minutes of HD video on a standard DVD, just transcode to Divx (or Xvid, H.264, mpeg4, ...) and you can get a couple of hours of high definition video on a standard DVD.

Joe Linn · Post by **Joe Linn** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:12 am

Thanks,

Unfortunately, the Toshiba HD-DVD player cannot read data files Divx or otherwise so that's not an option. It can read DVDs and HD-DVDs. The thread contains instructions for writing HD-DVD format disks and playing them back on the Toshiba HD-DVD player. A number of people posting to the thread are having very good results. Both VS10 and MF5 can create HD-DVDs. You can burn the files to the hard drive then use other software to burn those files to a standard DVD. The Toshiba will recognize it as a HD-DVD and play it as HD-DVD.

That all works and I have been creating disks that the Toshiba recognizes as HD-DVD. Wheras a standard DVD uses VOB (video object) files, HD-DVD uses EVO (enhanced video object files). There is a problem in the EVO files that I have gotten out of VS10. They have video skipping, whether I play the files directly from my hard dirve or burn the to DVD and play them on the Toshiba. I am looking for help fixing the skipping in those files.

The procedure I have been using, which is described in the AVS thread, is as follows:
1) Go into UVS10. Select FILE then PROJECT PROPERTIES. Select EDIT. On the COMPRESSION tab select MPEG2. On the GENERAL tab set FRAME SIZE to 1440x1080.
2) Select SHARE.
3) From the share menu, select CREATE DISK.
4) From the drop down list on the create disk screen, select HD-DVD.
5) Click the gear shaped SETTINGS tab and ensure "do not convert MPEG compliant files" is selected.
6) Select ADD MEDIA and add HDV high definition video to the timeline. The files I have used were created with Media Studio Pro 8 and they are in mpg format.
7) I have tried it with and without the option to create a menu checked. The menus work fine.
8) Select NEXT and NEXT to get to the burn screen. Select CREATE HD-DVD FOLDERS and indicate the folder where you would like the files written.
9) Select BURN. UVS10 will create the data structure of an HD-DVD. It will create two folders ADV_OBJ and HVDVD_TS. The HVDVD_TS folder will contain the EVO (enhanced video object) files. At this point, the EVO files can be played with VideoLan. They contain skipping in the exact same places I see skipping when I burn them to DVD and play them on the Toshiba.
10) At this point, I have added a VIDEO_TS folder with a VOB file. I am not sure if this is necessary.
11) Use a DVD burning program to write these three folders to a DVD. I have used Nero and 1 Click DVD Copy with good results.
12) At this point, I have a DVD which the Toshiba will recognize as HD-DVD and play.

The mpeg files I add to the timeline do not contain skipping. I have narrowed things down so VS10 doesn't re-convert the files (which shows up as a lengthy process on the time indicator when it is happening). It just muxes them into EVO files. The EVO files contain skipping, whether played directly or burned to DVD and played on the Toshiba.

Does anyone have suggestions of things I can do to fix the skipping, either by modifying the settings of the file I feed to VS10 or modifying the settings within VS10?

Joe

Joe Linn · Post by **Joe Linn** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:07 pm

tyamada wrote:From your posts I assume you are creating your files in VS10+. From what I read about creating a disk image or HD DVD folders most of the folks on the other forum were using Movie Factory 5. You might want to try MF5 for your
disk creation.

Thanks for the suggestion. When I saw the the AVS thread, I compared MF5 and VS10. The functions for creating HD-DVD looked identical, as did the menus and options for doing so. I assumed the capabilities and results were the same. Since the capabilities looked identical, VS had additional capabilities as well, and the price difference was small, I purchased VS instead. Do you know if I was incorrect in my understanding and there are differences in the way the two programs create HD-DVD? I'll post a question on the other forum and ask if anyone else who is having good results is using Video Studio.

This has been a frustrating experience for me. I use Media Studio Pro for my editing. The reason I bought VS10 is its capabilities to create HD-DVD and the good results people on the other thread were having. I'm hoping to find a way to fix the problems I am having since this is the reason I bought the program.

Thanks

Joe

tyamada · Post by **tyamada** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:43 pm

Joe:

I think Movie Factory 5 is different in many aspects, the capture module doesn't share any of the files of VS10+. I'm not sure about the rendering and DVD creation modules. I suspect some of the creation modules have common elements.

MF5 doesn't have the editing capabilities of VS10+ but its main purpose is to create DVDs. Both Disc creation pages look the same, but the the difference might be in the writing engine.

You should download the Try Before You Buy version of MF5 to see if it produces the same problem.
http://www.ulead.com/dmf/trial.htm

jchunter · Post by **jchunter** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:08 pm

Joe,
Interesting problem. I had not checked out burning HD-DVDs because I don't need $50 beer coasters.

However, I tried your workflow and noted that VS10+ defaulted to an incorrect field order (Lower Field First).

I had selected the HD-DVD template and was able to select either 1440 or 1920. (You have to select the tiny dropdown directly above the template manager button to get the properties to stick - annoying.) However, the burn properties were preset with the wrong field order (LFF). This alone could cause skipping. The video data rate for 1440x1080 was preset to 18Mbps - different from the source clip properties.

When I used the Customize button I was able to fix the field order and set the video data rate to match the HC1 clips - 25Mbps. I checked the "Create HD-DVD folders" button and it fired up.

It is going to take some time, so I will report back later.

Joe Linn · Post by **Joe Linn** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:38 pm

Thanks,

I should have mentioned that in my post. I did notice that the field order didn't match. I tried changing VS10 to upper field first. I also tried leaving it at lower field first and recreating my input file lower field first. The results were the same in all cases. I also tried frame based and got really strange stroboscopic effects.

I also tried changing the bit rate of the input file. I tried everything from 35000 Mbps down to 15000 Mbps. The higher bit rates made the skipping worse, but it didn't go away with the lower bit rates.

As you can see, I have been generating lots of beer coasters. Fortunately blank DVDs are relatively cheap. It was a big help when I figured out I could test without burning the DVD, just by viewing the EVO file with VideoLan.

I'll try downloading the trial of MF5 tonight and see if I have better luck with that.

Thanks again.

Joe

jchunter · Post by **jchunter** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:12 pm

Joe,
The EVO file that was created isn't recognized, as such, by MPC player, but when I changed the suffix to .mpg, it played - with periodic video/audio hiccups. This seems to confirm your experience.

However, changing suffix is an improper way to make a file playable because it doesn't change the underlying file structure. Googling on "EVO file format" did not ellicit much information about EVO format except that it is yet another compression algorithm. However, my 7 minute HD clip created a 1 GB .evo file, which is three times larger than the source clip - so I am not impressed the "compression".

Moreover, if you actually burn this onto a standard DVD disk, either the burner will downres the video to DVD-Compliant standard definition or it will be unplayable because the bitrate exceeds the capability of the DVD (as Torsten said earlier).

This may turn out to be another Internet "legend" that will soon be disproved.

maddrummer3301 · Post by **maddrummer3301** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:42 pm