question about frame based upper lower

[Doug2006]

HI, I just bought and downloaded 10 plus. I had been experimenting with vs9 before. I am very happy things seem to work fine. My question is this. I capture from a analog camera with a plextor 420 u and I am now editing. I use intervideo to do the capture as it seems to work best. I am capturing at a variable bit rate 4500 and it puts it into meg 2 with meg 2 sound. In the past I have edited and just made file and disc with out worrying about anything (just keep properties the same as file). But now I want to make some training tape files smaller. They have no complicated scenes in them. I went to make a template for this. That's where I started to run into the frame based question. It seems that my project in the properties box in the template make movie manager is frame based. So I am making these to play on a tv set should I change that to upper or lower. I am testing one right now that I set to different thing. Does it matter? In the Ulead pdf instuctions it says or implies that frame based is only for computer play back. Also in the sticky, read this first post, it does talk about setting this for analog or digital capture but if I am capturing from the Plextor box which is doing all the work than isnt it digital when it hits the computer? Thanks for the help. And BTW it seems Ulead has combined the bonus pak and extra content pak as my invoice only showed the three downloads. Program , content and extras.

[Ken Berry]

I assume you are talking about the Plextor 402U rather than what you wrote as 420U (which as far as I can see, does not exist). But anyway, it is a capture device which has hardware encoding to mpeg-2 and a variety of other formats. Unfortunately, I don't know what Field Order it uses in its captures, though with most analogue capture devices, Upper Field First is used. When you capture a file, can you insert it in the VS10 library panel and right click on it, please, and give us the properties. That will at least indicate what Field Order was used in the capture.

And yes, if you intend your end product to be played on a TV, rather than a computer monitor, you should avoid Frame Based unless you are making a slideshow of still images. But I am a little confused when you say your project settings are Frame Based. Did you choose this format, or was that the DVD template default? I seem to recall it was also the default in VS9, which in my humble opinion, is a silly default given that most DVDs will be played on TV and so should be either Upper or Lower Field First.

Anyway, when you select DVD as your format, you would need to use the Options button on the template page to edit the format of the template to show the same Field Order you have detected above from the properties of your captured file.

[Doug2006]

Thanks for the help. Here is where some of my confusion comes from. If I select a clip and click on properties it pops up box and tells me file name file format size duration than mpeg-2 total frames 24bit 720x480 4:3 rate data rate and the audio which is mpeg layer two. No where on here does it tell you field order. Not until I just rendered a clip and selected lower field first now when I click on THAT clip and check properties it does say after MEPG -2 Video , Lower Field First. So it seems that maybe if your clip is frame based than VS does not bother to tell you this. I am suspicious that all my clips are frame based because when I tried to use make movie manager I noticed that it had a small box there that said properties and it said in there frame based. Because I am using the plextor box I just ignored all this because it really doesn't give you much choice about it. This clip I just converted or rendered seems to play well I will have to burn a copy of it and try it on the tv. I went from 4500 variable down to 2000 and it looks the same in quality. The question is should I convert these clips before I edit them or wait and convert after. And should I change to lower or upper field? And will I notice or will it make any kind of difference. Thanks

[Ken Berry]

I cannot believe the Plextor would capture Field Based -- but unless someone who actually has your device and knows what it captures to, chimes in here, your might have to do some experimenting, rendering your project -- or a small experimental part of it, for speed -- to both Upper and Lower Field First. If you get a final video in which rapid movement produces a shearing effect on the image or sharp edges appear jaggy, then whichever Field Order you used on that clip is the wrong one. My bet is that it should be Upper Field First, but as I say, I don't have your device so don't know for sure.

As for the template in Make Movie Manager, as I said, I think it is set to Frame Based by default, and it has nothing to do with what your own captured clips are. But it is there that you need to use the Options button to change frame-based first to Upper Field First, then to Lower Field First, for the above experiment. Once you work out which looks better, leave that template alone in future... or call it something else so that it is saved as a new template.

[VidKid]

It seems safe to assume that a clip is frame based unless the properties specify otherwise.

If you select New Project, change the "Properties" to lower field first, and then add the clip, the message box "Details" tab specifies whether or not the clip is frame-based.

Hope this helps!

Steve.

[Doug2006]

Ahhhh I see VidKid, Yes if I do what you say then it shows the properties and it seems that all my captures are frame based from the plextor 402 box. I am going to convert a sample to upper and lower and see how they play that way. I will have to admit that I have done 5 or 6 vcr tapes to dvd and they play fine on the tv and they must have been done in frame based because I always kept the project properties and burn stuff the same the whole way through. Another learning experience. Thanks for the help.

[Doug2006]

Just to finish up this topic and maybe help someone: Yes I found out that plextor capture 420 box outputs the capture in frame based. To test this I captured short clip and than clicked to have it run in reverse and then rendered it. It ran perfectly in reverse. I was told that means it is frame based. The details box that shows up when I go to insert clips into timeline also says frame based clips. I was also told that once I have frame based clips I can never have field based ones or convert to field based ones as that information is lost. Although I have had vs make a file with the specifications lower field first and upper field first and it does that and they play but I am not sure if it really does that and how. I was instructed to just leave them in frame based mode.

[jchunter]

Doug,
It seems odd that your capture box would insist on capturing video in Frame Based Field Order. I would look for a menu or control point that would let me select the Field Order property, as well as control all the other property values.

Look for a property labled "Deinterlace" or something like that.

Generally, interlaced video displays motion artifacts when subjects move around on the screen because the two fields that make up a frame are shot at different times. The most pronounced distortion is the "comb effect, where a moving vertical edge appears as if it had spines sticking out horizontally. If you know what you are doing, and have a good deinterlacer, your video can look better. I do it for high definition video, which improves the smoothness of panned video on both PC and HDTV displays.

However, if you are just starting out with video editing, these advanced topics are just going to get you in trouble at some point and so I would contact the mfg of the capture device for information on how to control the capture properties. If you are concerned about picture quality, I would also increase the video bitrate to 8000kbps.