What's the best MPEg format for DVD

mmpo · Post by **mmpo** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:52 pm

I know that everybody out there have there own preferences, but please help me with some suggestions. I'm in South Africa, thus PALDVD.
What is the best format to capture and render video clips for DVD playback? Use MSP Pro 8 and MF 4 / 5(?)

I currently use the following:
720 x 576 - PALDVD Mpeg 2
VBR- 4380 Kbps - Same as the default for 2 hours recording on my DVD recorder connected to my TV.
Upper field first- Tends to run jerky on final rendering.
Have not tried 2 pass or DVD VR Compliets as I'm not sure what it's for.

Sound:
MPEG Audio Stereo -48000 256 Kbps (Tried LPCM once in Moviefactory 4, but then sound was out of sync.

Thanks you guys, I've learnt a lot from this forum!

Devil · Post by **Devil** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:12 pm

There is no "best". Wherever possible, I use, from a DV original

6000 kbit/s constant video, lower field first
192 kbit/s AC-3 (Dolby digital) stereo 2/0

which is good up to about 90 min on a SD disc.

If the source is lower quality, then you can reduce the video bitrate.

cfh · Post by **cfh** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:45 pm

I always render to AVI. Then after the project is all done, i process the AVI file thru a MPG encoder. If it is a long project (1.5 to 2.5 hours), I use Cinema Craft encoder. I tell the software the maximum file size (based on the type of DVD disc i am using), and it figures out the highest bitrate for me to maintain that size. That's really the best you can do.

mmpo · Post by **mmpo** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:57 pm

Thanks for the advice.

AVI is huge however, about 10 times larger than MPEG I think. The projects I do don't need very high quality.

Have you found the working, previewing and rendering better / faster inAVI?

THoff · Post by **THoff** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:56 pm

If think for most people here who edit video, the source is probably DV video, which comes in at 25Mbps (~13GB/hour) -- that's three to four times the size of typical MPEG2 video bitrates for DVDs. If you are seeing files that are ten times larger, you are probably using uncompressed AVI, which is indeed excessively large.

If you are experiencing jerky motion, you may in fact have the wrong field order. I noticed you use upper-field first -- that's usually used by analog captures, whereas DV AVI for instance is always lower-field first. Preserving the field order throughout the production process is crucial.

Can you tell us a bit more about how you capture? Is it analog, what capture device do you use, do you capture directly to MPEG2 or do you transcode afterwards etc.?

cfh · Post by **cfh** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:49 pm

mmpo wrote:Thanks for the advice.

AVI is huge however, about 10 times larger than MPEG I think. The projects I do don't need very high quality.

Have you found the working, previewing and rendering better / faster inAVI?

Yea you must be using uncompressed AVI. you want "type 1" compressed AVI, which is basically native DV camera format AVI. MPG is a beotch to edit because of the compression, it uses lots of computer resources and takes more time to do nearly anything. It's easier to use AVI for all editing, and then do the MPG compress once at the end.

THoff · Post by **THoff** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:00 pm

If the soure is analog and he's not using an analog-to-digital converter that spits out DV to start with, then converting to DV may result in a quality loss. Some capture devices output hardware-encoded MPEG2, and in that case I'd stay with that, or go to a lossless AVI codec like Huffyuv.

mmpo · Post by **mmpo** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:33 pm

Wow, thanks guys, I'm learning a lot. When I first started capturing video (analog straight from VCR witha capture card) - that's 5 years ago, AVI chowed my harddrive space in no time. I will surely try to capture in AVI again as I do see quality loss, and yes, it is quite heavy on editing and previews.

I'm using the following:
I've got a PD 170 (broadcast quality) digital camera. - Mini DV.
I capture via firewire (MPEG as discribed- and that shows jerky while capturing- so that I do everything afterthat in the same format)
I then edit wit MSP 8 - Great new features - especially with Hotfix fixing most problems.
Output my final files to either MPEG1 (for presentations) or PAL DVD (above settings) for DVDs. Sometimes tend to have jerky videos (especially on tansitions or fast moving clips).
I will for sure try the "type 1" compressed AVI. Will report on results. Will rather use more hard disk space to ensure easier rendering and better quality. Thanks again for your inputs.

Devil · Post by **Devil** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:21 am

As you are using a mini-DV cam, for best results you should capture to DV1 AVI, edit and only when you have finished convert to MPEG, using the settings I mentioned above.

However, please allow me to mention that, although the PD170 is an excellent cam, it can never be broadcast quality. True broadcast cams use no compression and acturally have separate RGB output streams (i.e., 4:4:4 colour space). Mini-DV or DV25 is a compressed format with YCbCr compression with 4:1:1 (NTSC) or 4:2:0 (PAL) colour space. Full-sized DV uses the DV50 (or DV100 for HD) standards with lower compression and 4:2:2 colour space. Much in-field outside broadcasting and even some feature work uses DV50 cams for STV, for convenience, and the quality is just about good enough, even with stringent editing. Of course, some newscasters do use mini-DV DV25 cams, such as the PD170, for their portability and ease of use, especially with restricted production teams in "hot" areas where rapid movement may be life-saving. If you like analogies, low class DV cams are kinda sorta equivalent to Super-8 film, top class 3-CCD DV25 cams with good lenses are equivalent to 16 mm, DV50 to 35 mm and DV100 + RGB to 70 mm film. Of course, like all analogies, this is not to be rigidly adhered to. I hope I don't disillusion you!

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:23 am

In addition to the excellent advice above please view the 7th post down
http://phpbb.ulead.com.tw/EN/viewtopic.php?t=11923

Gorf · Post by **Gorf** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:09 pm

sjj1805 wrote:In addition to the excellent advice above please view the 7th post down
http://phpbb.ulead.com.tw/EN/viewtopic.php?t=11923

That's actually more confusing than it needs to be, Steve, because you need big bold letters stating that these are default profiles and are actually quite flawed. A newbie scanning through that will just see the feature times and the corresponding settings.

Wherever it says "maximum" it should read "average"
It is counter-productive to use video rates much higher than 6000 kbps
It is unnecessary to use LPCM audio except for (say) orchestral soundtracks with a pristine master recording. For anything else - including a soundtrack ripped from a CD, LPCM is overkill.
It's just plain wrong to make an NTSC DVD using* an MPEG-audio soundtrack.

I ran the times given through my bitbudget spreadsheet (plus 15 minute increments) and came up with the following settings:
Mins . Avg total . AC3 . Avg Vid . Max vid . Resolution
060 ..... 6750 .... 256 ... 6494 .... CBR ..... 720x576/480
075 ..... 6750 .... 256 ... 6494 .... CBR ..... 720x576/480
090 ..... 5953 .... 256 ... 5697 .... CBR ..... 720x576/480
105 ..... 5102 .... 256 ... 4846 .... 6744 .... 720x576/480
120 ..... 4465 .... 192 ... 4273 .... 6808 .... 720x576/480
135 ..... 3968 .... 128 ... 3840 .... 6872 .... 720x576/480
150 ..... 3572 .... 128 ... 3444 .... 6872 .... 720x576/480 or 352x576/480
165 ..... 3247 .... 128 ... 3119 .... 6872 .... 720x576/480 or 352x576/480
180 ..... 2976 .... 128 ... 2848 .... 6872 .... 720x576/480 or 352x576/480
195 ..... 2747 .... 128 ... 2619 .... 4500 .... 352x576/480 or go to multiple discs
210 ..... 2551 .... 128 ... 2423 .... 4500 .... 352x576/480 or go to multiple discs
225 ..... 2381 .... 128 ... 2253 .... 4500 .... 352x576/480 or go to multiple discs
240 ..... 2232 .... 128 ... 2104 .... 4500 .... 352x576/480 or go to multiple discs

These are all based on a single layer DVDR-5 with 5% given over to the filesystem and 10% dropped off to keep the outer edge clear.

* In fact - since 1998, when AC3 support became mandatory on PAL players too, there's only ever one situation when you'd want to use MPEG audio - and that's when a recipient is going to want to play it on a computer that does not have a suitable AC3 decoder installed.

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:16 pm

You mean you didn't see this

The following are the pre-defined MPEG settings contained in DVD Workshop 2
I would however use Dolby (AC3) in preference to the suggested audio settings below.

Gorf · Post by **Gorf** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:36 am

No, I didn't miss it the second time I read through - but I did the first, hence my reply.

I did actually say that you need to put it in bold letters so it won't be missed.

There's a big risk in reproducing flawed information without explaining why (in one's own opinion) it's flawed. Saying that your preference is to use AC3 a) doesn't indicate that the NTSC settings are WRONG and b) doesn't address the other mistakes in the settings.

mmpo · Post by **mmpo** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:16 am

Thanks for all your help. I normally do promotionals of max. 30 min. or so. Rarely some longer videos.

Do I summarise right:

1. Stick to AVI capturing - Type 1.
2. Use constant Bitrate -6000 Kbps
3. Use AC3 sound 192 bits (That's Dolby)
4. Field order - lower field.
5. Capture at values you intent to edit in.
6. Do final output in MPEG using a MPEG encoder.

mmpo · Post by **mmpo** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:39 am

Further on above:

Played around a bit. I see in MSP8's capture option, when selecting AVI it reverts back to DV (which is AVI). There is then no options to set the Bitrate or sound options. The file size is nearly 5 times larger than MPEG -CBR 6000/ Dolby sound.
I captured 2 files of 1 min. each. The DV (AVI) file was 211 Mb and the MPG one 46MB.

My question:
Is the AVI then worth it if you can't set the bitrate and audio? (Sound given as DV Audio). Especially if you say that the final file needs to be Converted to MPG in any way for DVD and takes long to render from AVI to MPG.