Chapters missing audio in VS9

[TubaDad]

Before the standard response of reading the sticky on top, I have read it and do something very similar to it, but just different enough to make it easier on me.

The problem:
I just burned a 22 chapter project where the audio was missing on chapters 1, 7, 14 & 20. The audio was fine on all of the other chapters, but missing on those identified. I verified the original clips, and they are fine. Even tough I generally find it nearly useless, I even checked with the little preview window on at least one of those chapters and it was fine there too.

The setup:
The way I create disks is to take the AVI footage captured from the camera and separate out each chapter by trimming the start and end points and generating an MPEG2 file from there (I do this because I know I won't be editing that clip again). This way I can also sort through 5-10 minute clips validating the audio/video, even testing them against other players on my computer. When I create the project to burn the DVD, I have consistant MPEG2 (matching my project settings) files that I can link together, with the occasional transition. Also, I burn to a folder on the hard drive so that I can test the menus before I burn a DVD. I usually just sample the chapters watch the credits for smoothness, that is why this one hit a DVD before I noticed the audio problem. This has worked very well for me for several years, this is the first reportable problem that I have had. More specifically, never had a problem that was not covered here by others.

Video Statistics:
MPEG2 (NTSC)
720x480, 29fps
6000Kps data rate
Dolby audio 48K

I am currenty rendering the project again, but thought I would inquire to whether anyone else has run into something like this. I am sure I am missing an important piece of information above, but I can't break into it right now, so if I need to post more info just let me know, the rendering should be done in a little while.

Thanks.

[TubaDad]

Update:

I just finished the new render and this time chapters 8 and 21 are without audio. Less chapters this time, but still not acceptable.

Any ideas???

[Ken Berry]

Bruce -- do you use Smart Render? If you do, then what happens if you switch it off -- I mean with the missing audio, rather than the quality of the video for the moment?

And, with respect, while I understand what you are doing and that it has worked for you in the past, I am nonetheless pretty amazed that you have the patience to individually render 22 or more initial DV/AVIs into individual mpeg-2s, before adding the occasional transition and then burning. I just don't follow the logic (but understand that my logic is not yours -- 'one man's meat...' etc!!)

My own work flow also doesn't exactly mirror the Recommended Procedures either (but hey -- that works for me too!!). I also start off with DV/AVI originals in most projects. Then I make my cuts and other edits, but then, in each case where I have made cuts, I use 'save trimmed video' to create individual smaller DV/AVI files.

I know this has just been discussed recently, and that the 'recommended' approach is simply to use the 'virtual' clips created when you make the cuts without creating an actual separate file. Indeed, that is exactly what I do with other programs, including MSP 8 and Premiere. However, for whatever reason, I usually have the minor problem with VS9 that when I move my virtual clips around extensively on the timeline, then I find that more often than not an unrelated frame or two from before and/or after where the virtual clip was originally located, slip into the new location, usually flashing annoyingly into the transition. So now with VS9 I create individual new DV/AVI clips which I can ensure don't have extraneous frames at the beginning or end.

Anyway, I then string all these new DV/AVIs together on the timeline, add transitions, titles, voice-overs, background music etc, and only then -- as per the Recommended Procedures -- create my Video File mpeg-2.

IMHO, your procedure still risks putting the cart before the horse i.e. you are producing lots of small mpeg-2s before you do your final edits. Smart render obviously is meant to get around this by only rendering the transitions etc. But as is pretty obvious from the problems on this Board with Smart Render -- mostly with VS8 but increasingly also with VS9 for some reason -- Smart Render does not always work. And this may be what is (finally?) happening in your case...

[TubaDad]

Ken, Thanks for the reply.

I don't know if I am following you correctly on Smart Render. I do not see anywhere to turn on/off Smart Render when rurning a disc. I do use Smart Render when creating the separate clips, but onece they are created and put together in the project Smart Render is out of the game.

Ken, it sounds like we have a very similar procedure, I just use MPEG2 files instead of AVI files. I started doing this when I had less hard drive space and stuck with it because it works so well, or did work so well until today, but I am not convinced it is my file types right now.

I do have another piece of information that I just went through. I took everything and created one big MPEG2 file. Loaded that into a new project. had to individually put in my chapter settings (I hate that part). And rendered the disc. This time it came out with only missing the audio on chapter 8 (21 was fine). This was one big happy file. I went through every chapter in the preview before the burn, all of the audio was there. The strange thing to me is that the audio is missing in chapter 8 only this time, from the beginning of 8 to the end of 8. 1-7 are fine and 9-22 are fine. I would accept that it could be some kind of smart rendering problem when I was using separate files, but when it picks out something in the middle of single clip, that is just mean.

I am going to reboot the computer again, go back to my original project and see if I can find somewhere to turn off Smart Render in the burn process, I feel like I am overlooking it. Then I am going to burn again. I have a feeling it is going to do it again, but maybe to a different chapter this time. This is a bit frustrating, but it really is the first significant problem that I have run into with VS, that is unique.

[Ken Berry]

No -- don't both looking for it in the burn process. One piece of information you didn't put in your original post is that you also don't follow the Recommended Procedure by in effect going from your project (with the 22 individual mpeg-2s plus transitions etc) in the timeline direct to burn. I had been assuming that you had first gone to Share > Create Video File > DVD as in the Recommended Procedures, and where of course (as you know) you can turn Smart Render on or off.

But in a sense, that is neither here nor there. I still think you are having this problem because you first produce individual mpeg-2 files from your original DV/AVIs, and then do your editing (admittedly minor though it seems to be) -- and then, to compound matters, burn direct to disc from the timeline (though your latest experiment at least gets back to the Recommended Procedure of first producing a new mpeg-2 of your whole project).

Is there any way you can replicate your project, but leaving the original DV/AVI in place, with virtual cuts or with actual new DV/AVIs created using Save Trimmed Video, then do your editing, then create the DVD-compatible mpeg-2, and then burn?

[TubaDad]

Ken,

I am not sue exactly how that is going to be any different than the single MPEG file that I created with my last attempt. Unfortunately I can't start over completely, going back to the original DV/AVI files and recutting. Like I said though, I have no idea how that would give me a different single MPEG2 file than what I have right now. I can play the entire, large, MPEG2 file without any issues, which takes me to that last step, then do the burn. There are no issues, at all, with the large file, I know I just sat through the full 1.5 hours. It is the same one that I used to burn and chapter 8 is without audio. I would suspect that if I was having a problem it would not be so good to hit the marks, in and out, for that one chapter out of the whole file.

I'll keep trying different things, but I am baffled at this point.

While I did try it, with no success, I do find it completely unacceptable to have to generate a single video file to use when burning a disc. I do understand the limitation of the software, but i have trouble accepting that it worked up to this point with my technique and now it fails. I would accept it if I were to have just installed a new version or patch, but not when it has been stable and unchanged for so long.

I know my frustration is coming through, and it is not meant at anyone here, I know you are trying to help, it has just been a very frustrating project at this point.

Thanks again for the help.

[sjj1805]

Bruce.
Just a thought....
Could be the discs, you may have a bad batch. Have you checked the DVD file that you created to the Hard Drive?

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi Bruce

I am a little confused as to the workflow that you are following.

You said

‘When I create the project to burn the DVD, I have consistant MPEG2 (matching my project settings) files that I can link together, with the occasional transition’

If you are at the burner stage you should not be adding the occasional transition

You also said
‘I just finished the new render and this time chapters 8 and 21 are without audio’

At what point did you render this video / project?

Can you confirm that you are NOT rendering after selecting Share—Create Disc?
Do you see the info window ‘ This action will take some time to render’????


Trevor

[TubaDad]

Steve and Trevor, thanks for jumping in here, it is always nice to have more eyes looking at this.

Steve, I only wasted the first disk. What I am doing is burning the folders to my hard disk and testing there before I burn it on DVD, so the media is not an issue at this time.

Trevor, let me try and lay out my process for making DVDs, it is different than the posted sticky, but it works for the type of video I shoot, starting from transferring it from the camera. Some parts are just hold overs from using VS for so long, they may not contribute any longer, but it is like riding a bike, I follow it and it works (or at least it did).

1. Connect the camera via firewire. Panasonic Mini-DV camcorder.
2. Open one of two existing projects depending on the frame type, I have a template setup for 4:3 and one for 16:9. They set the project settings for the right aspect that I will be using.
3. Verify my capture settings are NTSC-DV/AVI. They don't change, but I look anyway. All the standard stuff here, 720x480, lower field first, DV type 1.
4. Go into capture and capture everything on the tape. I usually know how long I taped for and can set the clock to just capture that much. I do use separate by scene to get the initial breaks, although occasionally it is just one straight recording.
5. Once the AVIs are captured I will take them one at a time and edit them. I crop the beginning and end to only keep what I want.
6. With each clip I create a new MPEG2 file with the settings for "NTSC DVD". The only thing I really mess with here is to make sure I have the aspect ratio correct and I adjust the data rate to variable 6000, I have this as a template also in the "Create video file" dropdown box. I know most of my videos are 70-90 minutes and have found this the best way to go.
7. Once the MPEG file is created I remove that AVI from the timeline and drag in the next and repeat step 6.
8. Once I have all of the clips edited and I am ready to create my DVD, I will create a new project file, matching the "DVD NTSC" settings, using another template. Drag the MPEG files into the timeline, adding a transition or two and the occasional title.
9. Next is to go through the DVD creation process. I go to Share, Create disc.
10. I click to add chapters. Using auto, I add the chapters, that is why I have the separate files.
11. I go to the next step to create my menu. (I need to find something to make more menu options without having to spend $500)
12. I go to the next step and validate my project is working in the test window. Generally I will only test about 20% of the chapters but all on the menus will be touched. (I have a habit of forgetting to title menus 2+, so I check)
13. Next step is to burn. I do not burn DVDs directly from VS. I always turn off the burn disc and check on the burn folders. Change where the folders are to be burned and burn it.
14. Once the folders are burned, I call them up in WinDVD to test the DVD. Here is another place that I normally just sample the chapters before burning the DVD with Nero. That is where I lost the first DVD, but it is the place that I have stopped each time since I noticed the problem.

To directly answer the questions you posed Trevor:
- I add the transitions in step 8 where I am laying out the video to be burned. That is before I go to the share menu.
- I consider "rendering" the last step in VS, step 13. Since I don't really "burn" the disc, I have generally referred to this step as rendering. I know it is wrong, but that is what I am used to. I'll have to remember to call that a burn in the future

Note: I completely ignore the statement "Caution: Never try to Create a DVD with anything in the timeline. Do not use the SHARE/Create Disk/Add Project control option." as I find it counter intuitive to have to manually set my chapter points and basically start from scratch to burn a DVD when the program has that ability.

I think I have everything there. I am currently trying another burn. This time I checked off the "Do not convert compliant MPEG files", we'll see if that does me any good.

Thanks.

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi Bruce

Thanks for the excellent explanation.

I realise you have used this process successfully for a long time. I have to agree that it should work. But there have been so many complaints and problems in the past associated with rendering in the burner stage, that the recommended procedure was created.(one of the reasons anyway)

I have just tried the process and indeed it does create your chapters automatically.
What I ended up with was one thumbnail in the main menu and 12 chapter points.
Yes I used 12 separate video files.

When I finally hit the burn button the system rendered the files again, as expected.

This is almost certainly causing your problem. Again I realise it has worked in the past and that I cannot explain.

Ok try this.

1 / Start a new project (important to do this)
2 / Drag one of your completed videos to the timeline. (VS will change the project properties to match the video file.)

3 / Delete / remove the file from the timeline.

4 / With an empty timeline Share Create Disc

5 / Add Video---add all your videos---At this point I tried 12 all with the same settings.

6 / The main menu will be created with one thumbnail for each video clip. (12 in all)
7 / Ignore the create chapters.
8 / I Customised the menu to select the correct amount of thumbnails
9 / Add any background sound / images
10 / Burn a folder to your hard drive.

The process should not render again but start with the burn process.

Do you loose any audio.

I think its time to change your workflow, I know you may disagree but………

Let us know how you get on.

All the Best

Trevor

[TubaDad]

Trevor, thanks for sticking with me.

On your test, the one thing I left out, because I did not see it as pertinent at the time is that I turn of the main menu so that it goes directly to the chapters menu. Then you will have the 12 thumbnails.

I am trying a burn with it regenerating my video again from 6000 to 5500. This project is just over the 4.7Gb size, so this was worth a try. Takes forever, but worth a try.

One problem that I have with the process you laid out is that it does not give me the ability to use transitions. I have tried putting all of my clips together, with transitions, and generating a single file, then burning the DVD folders and it still killed the audio in two of the chapters. And the chapters were input manually, so there was no way for VS to be having problems with one file and not another, it was all one file. I added that attempt to the thread yesterday. It was after that attempt that the frustration hit me full force.

I will try your steps, but with the single MPEG2 file. and see what I get out of it. Then I will try your process too, basically using the main menu as the chapter menu. I just can't live with that in the long run because I need to be able to use the transitions.

I am willing to change my workflow if it is necessary, but this is the first time I have run into anything like this, so I am going to be stubborn first and make sure that it is not just the black cloud over this project, and that it really is a black cloud over me.

Based on the progress of the re-rendering happening right now, I won't get to try this for at least 6 more hours.

Thanks again for your persistant help

[Trevor Andrew]

Ok Stubborn Bruce

You capture to Dv-Avi
You edit your separate video files.
Using Share Create Video File generate / render the project to mpeg files (ntsc-dvd).

At this point you select the bit rate. Get it right, select a bit rate lower enough to fit all your video files to disc.
As your example choose 5500 not 6000.(may be 5000)

There are bit-rate calculators free on the web try these for starters.

http://dvd-hq.info/Calculator.html

http://www.videohelp.com/calc.htm

If your video files do not need recoding from 6000 to 5500 in the burner module then maybe you could succeed.
Make sure the majority of the work is done outside the burner module.

I just don’t know,
I have never used the burner module to render my videos.

I am surprised you are going down this road having used VS from version 5.
Which I am sure could not render in the burner stage.

Not to worry, you will succeed in your processes or we will change you, either way we will make the video work.

Trevor

[Ken Berry]

Trevor -- you said:
"You capture to Dv-Avi
You edit your separate video files.
Using Share Create Video File generate / render the project to mpeg files (ntsc-dvd)."

The problem that I was trying to point out to Bruce is that he is NOT following this work flow, quite apart from what he does later in the process. And I think this is precisely where the potential for an initial error exists (again, quite apart from later steps which also vary from the recommended ones). Bruce captures to DV/AVI, as you say, but he does NOT then edit and then render the project to mpeg files. He captures to DV, then immediately converts to mpeg-2, THEN does his editing, then -- it now becomes even clearer to me -- creates a new project (NOT a new mpeg-2 file -- that is only a recent experiment on his part), and uses the project file (VSP) to burn his final disk image or Video_TS folder.

As you say, while this may have worked for him in the past -- as it should in theory for all of us -- there is too much evidence that both these fundamental steps have the potential to cause errors. And it seems as though those 'errors' may now be coming home to roost for some reason in this project. That is why I asked if Bruce could start from the very beginning and follow the recommended procedure EXACTLY...

Like many (most?) of us, I guess, I too don't follow the recommended procedures in every step. But I never avoid doing my edits in DV/AVI format before rendering to DVD-compliant mpeg-2 if I can possibly avoid it; and I never try to burn from a project file. And apart from the time several years ago when I was having problems with InCD taking over my burner, I have never had a failure using VS.

[TubaDad]

Yes Trevor, I am very stubborn, I blame that all on my Mom. I do understand the bit rate calculation, that is how I cam up with my 6000 bit size, years of 60-90 minute videos. I actually get surprised on occasion with the 95 minute video, like this one, and I have always worked around that using DVDShrink. I was trying the "fit to disc" option just as another thing to try.

Ken, I don't do any editing to my clips after they are in MPEG form. Once they are in MPEG form all I do with them is piece them together. I guess you could consider adding titles editing, if so, that is the only editing once they are in MPEG format.

Back to the burn procedure. How do you get transitions if the videos are added in at the burn stage?

I am trying Trevor's suggestion from earlier with adding the video in the Share Create Disc step. It is killing me to have to manually set the chapters, but I am trying here.

Did I mention you guys are great. I feel like I am at an AA meeting. "I am not a videoholic!" I am stubborn, that is just my nature. I can change, but it usually takes a hammer to my head, and this is starting to feel that way.

Thanks!

[Ken Berry]

In fact, adding titles is considered to be part of the editing process. Also, transitions. I had been assuming, since you have mentioned adding transitions several times, that you had been adding them somehow after you created all your individual mpegs, in order to join them together in a single mpeg-2. And of course you can add transitions before you go into burn mode, and not during the burn process, of course, to answer your question.

Anyway, we now know do now, that you do this, admittedly, small amount of editing but then do not usually produce a single large DVD-compatible mpeg-2 from the project, but instead open the burning module and use the project file. That being so, I can only repeat once again that VS will see this as needing to be (re-)encoded, even if only for the parts that have the titles and transitions added. And it is precisely this encoding during the burning phase which should not be occurring in the first place, and where problems can arise, as they finally have for you now.