audio sync

[behealed]

Heh, I'm using the full version of visual studio 9 with the latest update. And, I've read the sticky, so please don't bug me about the stickies. Honestly, I can understand asking users on a temporary bases to do some things to work around bugs. But to tell users, as you do in your sticky, that to fix the bugs are steps they should take (as opposed to saying that Ulead should take) is annoying just to read. A sticky is not a bug fix, k.

Alright so, now for my setup. Windows XP SP2. Plenty of memory/virtual memory. 1.6GHz p4. 300GB HD with 100GB free. Great quality audio/video. Enough said about that :p

And my videos: two very standard avi video captures from a DV at 740x480 NTSC 29.98 fps, each about one hour and 30 minutes long. Each file about 20GB. Each file contains audio and video.

Here are the exact stats of my video files...



Each file is recorded with the same settings as shown above.

Each file is a recording of a church service, recorded simultainiously from different angles in the auditorium.

The idea: to take these two videos and combine them into one video with the camera view switching between each view about every 30 seconds, to make it look more professional. Obviously the two videos would need to be in perfect sync from beginning to end.

Now, can some smart person tell me what is wrong with this picture...



Don't hurt yourself trying to figure that picture out! Yes, all three of those points are considered by the program to be the same spot in the time line. So then, if all three points are the same spot in the time line... what's up with the 30 second gap stuck in there? Very good question. I think the answer is probably going to be the same... "dude, read the sticky, follow the recommended procedure. Remember that YOU are responsible for fixing the bugs in VS9."

Heh. Anyway... I'm about ready to go look for some other video editing program and see if I can get my money back on VS9. The sticky isn't helping me. I'm not editing mpeg2 files, which are what all the stickies are for.

So if I'm not editing mpeg2 files, then you might ask how I managed to get such a huge out of sync issue. Well, I did split my video into many individual parts, each part being about 30 seconds long... and split the audio obviously, as you can see in my screen shot. But though I split my video so many times, that doesn't explain the absurdity of that screen shot. Yes, the program says the end of that video is as long as the audio, yet you can plainly see in the time line view that they are not. And when you play it, you can hear the difference. They start in sync but by the end of the video they are way off like that.

So I got really smart and I decided to "time stretch" my audio to make it as long as the video is showing to be. Well, when I time stretch my audio it does it, but then when I try to preview OR render the project to anything it crashes. It doesn't crash when I don't time stretch the audio. So without the ability to time stretch the audio, I really can't see any way to sync it up. Which is why I say I guess I need to go buy some other program that isn't so buggy :p

If it's any consolation, I do think that Ulead Videostudio9 is better than Pennicle studio 9 when it comes to video editing... mainly because I'm not willing to pay extra to unlock Pennicle's video effects... and Pennicle doesn't seem to have an video overlay layer like Ulead. Pennicle does capture better, at least on my computer, because I have the pennicle PCI capture card. So I capture in Pennicle and edit in Ulead. But Ulead is so riddled with bugs I can't even begin to name them all. For example, I *always, without exception* have to convert my rip my audio out of my avi files prior to rendering in Ulead. Why? Well because if the audio is part of the avi video then Ulead will always drop the last 1/3rd of my audio, giving me silence at the last 1/3rd(ish) of my movie. But if I convert my avi movie's audio in wav, and then mute the sound in my video and use the wav as like a music layer on top of the movie... then it renders fine. I invented that bug fix, har har. But it's a pain nonetheless, and Pennicle studio does not cut out the last 1/3rd of the audio when rendering. Likewise, in Ulead, if I was to take one of my movies with the same settings I just mentioned, and try to encode it in mono instead of stereo... it alters the speed of the audio, slowing it down by I guess 50%... so that the women sound like men, and the men sound like cows mooing in slow motion.

Bugs! Arrrge! VS9 should be in beta stage and not in final release in my opinion :p You can't blaim all of this on hardward or codec software... this is just plain ol' bugs in the Ulead program itself.

Aaron

[maddrummer3301]

Hi,

Maybe you were in a bad mood or had a bad day when you wrote that post.

The sticky post is only a guideline to get a novice started with the product. The sticky post also states that as the words 'Recommended Guidellines" etc.

Please do this forum and yourself a favor.
Please Download the trial version of "Adobe Premier Pro". One of the top of the line PC video editors or a comparable professional product. Avid, etc.

Do your editing & switching every 30 seconds that you stated and post the results back here how well you made out. And you don't split by seconds, you split by "Frames" if that helps you.
And, make sure to use DV-Type2 because your working with 4 audio tracks and 2 video streams that the original recordings were not recorded by external clocking/syncing devices.

Unless you used expensive recordiing equipment to record on do you really think that 1 second of video(29.97) frames on one camcorder is exactly 1 second(29,97 frames) on the other camcorder. Not likely.
When the pro's record a football game the field camera's transmitt RF wireless to a master station that records all the cameras at the sametime.
One recording of multiple video and audio tracks at the sametime. All time synced. That's how they keep their videos perfect and in sync.

What you are trying to do is drive a 16 penny nail with a 2 oz hammer.

Have a nice day,

MD

[sjj1805]

for a start off you've gone on a bit and I am sure a lot of readers probably stopped reading half way through.

Your image links are wrong you need to copy paste the image link into the message and then highlight that link then click the Img button at the top of the message screen.

Having said that I looked at the images anyway and the second one is barely readable you've used some awful red text on a blue background.

But... we will plod on. The image itself does not in fact tell me anything
You appear to have 4 clips on the timeline and the last one is completely taken up by a transition of some sort. Your audio file appears to extend some 20 seconds beyond the end of the video files.

From the screen dump it is impossible to determine exactly what you have done/tried to do.

I take it you have taken footage of an incident from two different camcorders at the same time. the way I would "merge" the two would be to place one camcorder recording on the video track.
The second camcorde recording on the overlay track and align them.

I would mute the sound from the overlay track.
I would then use the scissors tool to cut and discard unwatned footage from the second camcorder (the overlay track) keeping in mind ripple editing, so that you get the effect of cutting from one angle to the other.

I am sure a few of the other members of this forum will offer further suggestions.

[behealed]

Yea I guess I should go get adobe premere :p

And sjj, if you looked long enough at the time line pic I gave, it's got all the information you need to see the problem I am trying to point out, even if you can't read the fuzzy red text (it's compressed too much).

There are probably 100 clips in my time line, not just the last 4 shown in my pic.

But you were right about the audio file extending some 20 seconds beyond the end of the videos. Your getting warmer. But look again, because I have the very end of the last video clip selected with my pointer. What is the time stamp shown for the end of that last clip?

The time stamp for the end of my last video clip is 1:32:38.20
The time stamp for the end of my audio is also 1:32:38.20

Yet as you said, "It looks like the audio extends some 20 seconds beyond the end of the last clip."

That's the bug.

Aaron

[sjj1805]

[behealed]

By the way, sorry for being such a snot in my posts I guess I was a little upset. I shouldn't let things like this get to me. But partly it's just that I've very determined. Just a few weeks ago I was given 11 DVs to capture, edit and convert each of them into 3 different file formats. Plus each week I get three more DVs to do. So the idea is I need to quickly get done with the first 11 so that I catch up. That's a job. I'm working exceptionally hard cuz I do so many other things as well. I think I'm responsible for 4 different charitable organization's (church) websites.. plus a host of other audio/visual tech stuff and operations coordinating and ministry leading things I do around town. I'm doing all of this as a volunteer, and I love it. But these ministries are depending on me to get things done fast.

I say all of that not to say it's okay that I got upset but just to say that I just can't afford the time to work with these bugs in VS9 anymore. I'm not lazy, it's not that. But it's that I got all these DVs and videos to do. It takes my computer like 5 hours just to encode one of these... I need a video editing program that won't let me down.

Aaron

[behealed]

Hmm that's a good idea sjj, to do it that way (as shown in your second picture). Only problem is that would mean I would have to manually align all of my overlay videos, as opposed to the way I was doing it which was to multi-trim both videos in intervals of 15 seconds and then snap them together really fast by drag and drop. It would be interesting to see if the program has the option to align the overlay videos by typing in the numbers. i am a visual basic programmer and I might be able to write a program that could quickly tell me the exact positions where each overlay clip should be. If I could then type that infomation in, as opposed to trying to drag the videos with the mouse, then your idea might actually work and not take a whole lot of extra time.

Way to go, sjj

Aaron

[maddrummer3301]

Hi Aaron,

Here are some suggestions that may/may not help you out with video editing.

Syncing - Called Midi Time-Code SMTP -
One of thte most widely used methods (Berklee School of Music) for keeping everything in sync is to use programs that can use and generate SMTP (Midi Time Code). You set the programs up as Master/Slave configuration and the whole video & audio production is based on the stamping of the audio Midi time code. The average resolution can be as low as 120bbp. Most of the setups I've seen use 480bbp (beats per minute).

If you are looking at Premeir Pro you may want to consider Sony Vegas. You can get that as a package along with the Dvd production package. It's somewhat easier to naviagate in comparision to the pro line of products. Easy to remember the program itself.
If you go to the Sony website at follow the links or goggle for it you can download the program and use it. There is a way to activate it if you decide to purchase it by purchasing an activation serial number.
Vegas does SMTP for syncing.

As a suggestion before starting a complex project in VS9 make sure that the properties of the 2 DV files are corrrect and you haven't dropped any frames.

If it's possible and both cameras were running at the sametime check for proper or close sync between the 2 files by spitting the audio on each file and exporting the audio separately as Tape_1.wav and Tape_2.wav.
Then load the first cameras dv file, import the Tape_2.wav file and check for syncing. You can mute the Tape_1 track and monitor the Tape_2 audio track. I would be surprised if the Tape_2 track is in sync. That could be the original problem. I don't think you can slide the Tape_2.wav track behind or ahead by frames to sync with the First camcorders video track using VS9. MediaStudio Pro 8 can do that I believe.

Whatever you choose to do make one audio track as your main reference track for the whole production. All productions need a main reference time track.

If you can eventually afford it pickup a new or used video mixing board. If you had one you would have this project completed in 2 hours. You feed the 2 cameras into the video mixing board, panning and mixing between the 2 videos in real-time.
The output of the mixing board will be inputting into another dv recording unit such as a computer or dv tape unit.

Hope this helps,
Good luck,

MD

[Ron P.]

Charlie Hill is going to get another plug here...

In his book, Getting Results with Media Studio Pro 8 Charlie includes a chapter on multi-camera editing. Showing the method used to ensure that the audio and video clips remain insync.

After reading that, it is clear that putting together multi-camera videos is much more then taking 2,3 or more videos, placing them in tracks and cutting.

If you are really wanting to create some professional, commercial looking videos then I would recommend getting it. Charlie clearly doesn't not charge enough for his material...

Ron P.

[maddrummer3301]

Getting what?
MSP8 or just the book?

MSP8 doesn't support SMPTE code. A true feature that should be added to the program.

If you want to produce a Dvd video of a band which requires multiple audio tracks you really need the smpte time-code so the band can overdub and sync with the video & audio tracks.

When you have multiple computers linked via the midi-time code or an external box that is generating the midi-time code then the computer that is slaving to the midi-time_code SMTPE will start playing back (or recording on a separate track you assigned) the video and audio tracks that are active. That is real-time previewing along with recording and playback. But you can't sync anythiing exactly without the SMTPE code.
(Requires a midi interface of course).

The way that works is if one is using 2 computers and the 2nd one is linked as slave when I hit record on the Master computer to record new video or audio overlays the 2nd computer starts playing back whatever is active on it's multiple tracks, video dv & audio wav.

It's really cool. I use to have a Yamaha Diskclavier piano and use the computer to record the piano players audio tracks analog and at the sametime the midi information from the notes. When you play that back the piano starts playing back what he played in real-time. So the piano starts playing by itself. You will see many of these piano's in casino's playing by themselves. Pretty cool.

I'd like to see ulead add that to MSP_8.

MD

[sjj1805]

The book mentioned by Vidoman is an excellent piece of work and I second his opinion that it is underpriced.
However we are dealing with VideoStudio here and not MediaStudio and so have less flexibility.

About 8-10 months ago I completed a similar "multi camera" project for charity. In this project I was working with Video Studio 9,
the multi camera was in fact the same one but the "Actors" played the same routine on 3 consecutive weekends and
my Youngest son filmed them with my camcorder from different angles.

They were copying a "Laurel and Hardy" Dance Routine and we obtained a black and white original of the real
Laurel and Hardy performing the same dance.

Now the easy way would be to have used the method I mentioned above but I am always a glutton for punishment
and never turn down a challenge. The final video had a 4 multi-screen picture in picture effect.
Using VideoStudio this could only be achieved by adding one quarter of the screen at a time,
rendering, then adding another quarter and rendering again until all 4 screens were in position.

The routine lasted about 4 minutes - and don't forgot they were all filmed on different weekends.

I used the sound from just one of the video tracks and muted the rest.
It was simply a case of moving the track being added slightly forward or backwards a bit at a time until they all lined up.
Small variances were barely noticeable and in fact everyone who saw the video were extremely impressed
and the video raised quite a bit for charity.

The method in Charlies book describes a similar picture in picture effect.
It really depends upon what you want to portray.
You can either have Picture in Picture, alternatively the method I suggested is to cut from one video to the other then back again.

As I stated above there are going to be many suggestions and all will work.
It just depends upon what you the producer of the video wishes to achieve.