Super Bowls

cchase · Post by **cchase** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:38 pm

Hi.

I purchased MSP 8 about a month ago. I have spent a lot of time reviewing this web board, the manual, and the tutorials. I have had success burning DVDs and a lot of failures. So far, where I am at is: My DVDs have a 25% yield, (i.e. 3 out of 4 DVDs I render and burn are coasters).

The project:
I have recorded live broadcasts of Super Bowls for the past 20 years, (for my own personal archive). Most of these are v120 VHS tapes recorded in EP. I start the recording 1 hr before the game and let it record for 6 hours.

2 years ago I upgraded to HD. The last 2 Super Bowls, (XXXIX and XL), are sitting on my DiecTV HD DVR. I was waiting for the BluRay/HDDVD wars to end so I could archive in HD, however, I am running out of DVR space.

Sony has come out with a set top DVD recorder, RVR GX315 that has some interesting features:
- It records in true 720/480i 16:9 widescreen
- Supports DVD+R DL, 8.5 Gb, 1hr, 50 min at HQ speed
- Records Dolby Digital 5.1 SS
I have recorded on the GX315. The playback on a DVD player with Progressive scan looks almost as good as the original HD braoadcast. I thought my project was solved. However, there are some minor problems. The GX315 loads and plays the DVDs normally. Other DVD players, (even newer model Sony), have problems loading the DVD. They load very slowly, (maybe 2 min). Sometimes they will load for more than 5 min and then return an error that says the disc is dirty and needs cleaning. Pop open the tray and push it closed and the disc will load. I have spent 30 min trying to load a DVD, therefore, I decided to convert to another media...hence MSP 8.

The capture:

MSP 8 capture using the Import DVD plugin will capture the 1hr, 46 min video OK. It creates the following attributes:

File Format:NTSC DVD
File size: 7,774,694 KB
Duration: 6386.119 seconds
Video
Video Type: MPEG-2 Video, Upper Field First
Total Frames: 191,392 frame(s)
Attributes: 25 bits, 720x480, 4:3
Frame Rate: 29.970 frames/sec
Data Rate: Variable bit rate (Max 9318 kbps)
Audio
Audio Type: Dolby Digital Audio
Total samples: 306,533 Samples
Attributes: 48000 Hz
Layer: None
Bit rate: 256 kbps

I don't know why it doesn't capture in 16:9, I can't find where I can control this. There is the template manager, but it ignores my selected NTSC 16:9, (checked).

MSP 8 Editor

I then edit the video to extract a 30 sec clip. It is the most significant play on the disk. I use the clip as an intro clip to play before playing the Main Menu. I also clip several images to be used as menu background and cover images.

If I attempt to save the clip with the same attributes as the original, I get an error box:
2000:1:1 Failed to open MPEG Encoder.
I change the aspect ratio to 16:9 and it saves it OK. That's all I change, however, it changes the audio to 2 channel?...I can't seem to change it back.

From what I have gathered from this web board is that the DVD output attributes need to be the same as the video files we are burning. So I attempted to save the original video file with a 16:9 aspect ratio to match the clip. When I do this, it takes 4.5 hours and the output file shrinks to 3.6 Gb. When I burn this file, it takes less than 4Gb on the disk, and the playback is very low quality, (like it was recorded in EP speed).

Burning the disk in MF:

Using the original video file from MSP 8 Capture, I can burn a DVD that looks great. I can include the clip as an intro and build an impressive set of menus. The preview looks and sounds great. However, 3 times out of 4, when I play the finished DVD in another DVD player, either the intro clip has no sound or the video itself has no sound. It takes about 2.5 hours to render and burn the DVD.

I am burning on a Memorex Dual Layer DVD recorder, (new...less than a month old). I don't know the exact model number.

Any suggestions?

Next up...I will be converting my VHS tapes...

Thanks,

Chuck.

tyamada · Post by **tyamada** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:24 pm

Most stand alone DVD players don't like bitrates above 8000 and some won't play disks at 8000. Try experimenting with the output bitrates for your other players.

You you might also try the new Movie Factory 5, it supports HD and seems to do better than MSP8 for the time being.

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:50 pm

I have placed a table of suggested MPEG settings 7th post down here:
http://phpbb.ulead.com.tw/EN/viewtopic.php?t=11923

Another thing that may be causing you problems is the burn speed.
Do not burn at maximum. I haven't tried dual layer yet though I have a dual layer burner.

I have found that burning 8x discs with my 16x burner creates discs that not all standalone players are happy with. Burn at no higher than 4x and all the standalone players that my discs have been used with have had no playback problems.

Steve J

cchase · Post by **cchase** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:08 am

Hi tyamada and Steve. Thanks for the posts.

tyamada,

Are you suggesting that the reason the DVDs burned in the Sony GX315 are hard to load is that the data bit rate of 9318 kbps is too high? Interesting. Unfortunately, I have no control over that. Basically all I can do is select the record speed, (HQ), and push the record button. The DVDs that I burn with Ulead MF all load normally in all of my DVD players. I intentionally select 9318 in order to keep the format as close to the original as I can.

The idea of MF 5 is interesting. I could burn in either/both BluRay or HDDVD and wait for a good price on a HD DVD player to play them on...good idea. However, I don't know how to get the HD video out of the DVR. It has only Componant or HDMI output connectors. I don't know of any video capture board that has anything but analog inputs, (composit or SVideo). It has no flywire...So I would still be required to go through 480i type conversion.

Steve.

I did indeed go through that link before I attempted the DVD Authoring. It does recommend a max data bit rate of 8000 kbps for HQ, (1 Hr on a single layer disk). Like I said, I was trying to keep the bit rate the same as the captured video. Here are the rendering attributes I used:

MPEG files
24 Bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
(DVD-NTSC), 4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 9318 kbps)
Audio data rate: 256 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)... (it changed the 5.1 to 2 channel)...-note- when I actually get both the video and audio to burn OK, the audio still sounds like 5.1 SS when played on my DVD player. The center speaker is definately active.

I selected "Change MPEG Settings, and selected Cutomize...

On the Compression tab, I changed the Disk Type : NTSC DVD to 100% Quality

When it got to the Disc Burner screen, I selected the Icon that looks like a DVD disk with a lower case "i" infront of it, (Burning options). I selected Speed. It offers MAX, 4x, and 2.4x, (the disks I am using are Verbatim DVD+R DL 2.4x). I'm not sure what the 2.4x is, (record or playback). I selected 2.4x for a burn speed. But it doesn't matter, when it gets to the "burn disk" phase, it says it is burning at 4x speed...

Thanks.

Chuck

DVDDoug · Post by **DVDDoug** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:49 am

This won't be of much help, but a couple to thoughts -

still sounds like 5.1 SS when played on my DVD player. The center speaker is definately active.

I could be your receiver automatically going to Pro Logic mode. If the receiver allows you to change the settings to movie, music, hall, etc., that's the old (regular) Dolby Surround... what I call "analog surround".

I'm not sure what the 2.4x is, (record or playback).

That's the burn-speed. Movies and music have to play at 1x, or they would be playing at the wrong speed! kData discs can play back faster. ...I guess DVDs have variable RPM, because (unlike audio CDs) they have variable bitrates. I'll have to re-read my DVD Demystified book.

But it doesn't matter, when it gets to the "burn disk" phase, it says it is burning at 4x speed...

That could be almost anything...
-The blank has some sort of code so the drive read its speed rating.
-The drive's firmware reports the speed capability to the driver.
-The driver reports the speed info to the operating system
-The operating system reprots the speed info to the program

...(the disks I am using are Verbatim DVD+R DL 2.4x). ...Other DVD players, (even newer model Sony), have problems loading the DVD. They load very slowly, (maybe 2 min). Sometimes they will load for more than 5 min and then return an error that says the disc is dirty and needs cleaning.

The player(s) may simply have difficulty with all "burned" dual-layer discs. Some players can't play burned discs at all, some can play DVD-R, but not DVD+R, or maybe they can't play R/W discs. I haven't read any statistics ablut DL, but I'll bet that half of all existing DVD players can't play homemade DL discs. (I haven't tried one on mine yet.)

THoff · Post by **THoff** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:53 am

cchase wrote:The idea of MF 5 is interesting. I could burn in either/both BluRay or HDDVD and wait for a good price on a HD DVD player to play them on...good idea. However, I don't know how to get the HD video out of the DVR. It has only Componant or HDMI output connectors. I don't know of any video capture board that has anything but analog inputs, (composit or SVideo). It has no flywire...So I would still be required to go through 480i type conversion.

MF5 and Blu-Ray are no longer an option -- apparently Ulead yanked it, at least temporarily:

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/03/29 ... y_support/

htchien · Post by **htchien** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:05 am

It will be back after the BD logo verification process is finished.

H.T.

cchase · Post by **cchase** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:25 pm

Thanks for the posts, Folks.

I would like to point out that the DVDs that I burn on the PC, (Memorex Dual Layer DVD Burner), each and every one of them load and play in all of my DVD players. Not 1 has failed to load or had any problem loading. Only one DVD player, the Samsung, has a problem with the dual layers. It plays the 1st part OK and freezes when it get to the end of the 1st layer. All of the other players, this includes 2 Sonys, and 3 PC DVD player/burners, all play the DVDs fine.

The problem I am focused on is the yield. When I am ready to burn the DVD, I walk through all of the menus set the background images and the background music, (I use the theme from Monday Night Football). I then verify with the preview screen that all clips, menus, main video have good sound. When I get to the Burn DVD screen, I ask for 2 copies.

The ultimate destination is a Verbatim DVD+R DL with inkjet printable surface. You cannot put a lable on a DL disk. It will ruin it. These disks cost $6 each, the regular DL disks cost $2 each.

Therefore, I put the "cheap" disk in the burner 1st. 2.5 hours later, when the tray opens and MF is asking for the 2nd disk, I take the just burned disk to my TV and play it.

If the intro clip has sound and the main video has sound, I then put the expensive disk in the burner and continue. If one of the video files has no sound, (3 out of 4 times right now), I throw the disk in the trash, cancel the burn, tell MF not to save the project, close MF, close MSP Edit, and re boot the computer. I then start over...on the 3rd or 4th try, IT WORKS!

I am not sure if I am doing something to cause this or if it is a problem with MF. I was hoping you folks could point out the error of my ways or if I should contact Ulead Tech Support.

What do you think?

Chuck

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:32 pm

Chuck,
Rather than wasting DVD discs to check if everything is working before burning to the more expensive disc you have two options.
1. Burn to a hard drive folder then use DVD Playing software like
Ulead DVD player / Power DVD / Nero showtime etc. to check the 'DVD'
2. Use re-writeable discs.
The quality of re-writeables isn't usualy very good but good enough to at least do a quick check that sound and menus are as you intended.

tyamada · Post by **tyamada** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:42 pm

The best way to check your work is to create DVD Folders or an ISO image as Steve suggests. However, Once you have a working Folder/Image, burn it with something other than Ulead software.

I have had problems with burning with anything Ulead has to burn CD/DVDs they all use the same engine. Something like Nero or Roxio burning software can burn folders or images and are more reliable.

THoff · Post by **THoff** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:18 pm

I always burn to an ISO file if I intend to make several copies, and I burn those using a separate program (the Plextools utility that comes with Plextor drives). This is not a generic burning tool licensed by Plextor, but something specific to their drives, and I feel that it does a better job than third-party application.

I agree with the advice to do a test using either a VIDEO_TS folder or ISO file (mounted as a DVD) on your PC or a rewriteable disk, but this isn't necessarily reliable. Your computer and DVD decoder will react to an image file differently than a standalone DVD player, and there are also no rewriteable dual-layer disks available.

Last but not least, I would avoid DVD-DL media and use DVD+DL media on a drive with bitsetting (book type) support. The reason for this is that there is no book type for -R or -DL media, so both single-layer and dual-layer disks are marked as "DVD-R". Older standalone DVD players may not expect a second layer on a "DVD-R".

If you use +DL media and have a drive that supports bitsetting to mark the disk as a DVD-ROM, your chances of making a universally readable disk go up significantly, since dual layers have been part of pressed DVD-ROMs from the beginning.

cchase · Post by **cchase** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:24 pm

Steve and tyamada.

Good suggestions. I will try that this evening. Got to be cheaper than throwing away disks. Also, a good way to diagnose the problem, (i.e. is MF really creating good DVD folders, but the disk burner dropping the audio? or is MF dropping the audio during the rendering process?).

Stand by. I'll let you know how it goes.

tyamada, is Ulead aware of this burning problem?

Thanks,
Chuck

tyamada · Post by **tyamada** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:44 pm

Chuck:

I'm sure Ulead is aware of the problem, go to this link, scroll down to the burning section and click on the text.
http://www.ulead.com/tech/vs/vs90faq.htm

You can see their work around is what we suggest.

If you perfer to burn .ISO images you can use this utility to load the image, it works as a virtual CD/DVD drive.
http://www.daemon-tools.cc/dtcc/downloa ... ry&catid=5

THoff · Post by **THoff** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:37 pm

Please be aware that many copy-protection engines specifically check for Daemon Tools because it is popular with gamers who don't like to keep their original CDs in the drive (or who simply download cracked versions on the Internet). When these engines detect Daemon Tools, the programs they protect will fail to load or degrade/cripple the game.

In my opinion you are better off with something that doesn't include built-in support for defeating copy-protection engines, because it will likely not interfere with legitimate mounting of ISO images or protected applications -- one alternative is Magic ISO:

http://www.magiciso.com/tutorials/miso- ... erview.htm

cchase · Post by **cchase** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:21 pm

tyamada and THoff.

Thanks for the info.

tyamada, the link points to MS9. I take it MSP and MS both use the same burning s/w...MF? Ulead is not recommending a 3rd party product for the burning. They are still using MF?...I have Nero. It came with the Memorex DVD burner.

THoff,

Some interesting posts. Sorry I missed the 1st one, but it raises some questions. You use the Plextor drive, do any of the Plextor drives have bitsetting support? It sound like my Samsung player has a similiar problem and doesn't expect the +R disk to have a 2nd layer. Where can I learn more about this? It sounds like the DVD-ROM is the way to go. Can you change the bits on a +R disk? Is this done during burning or later. I take it it would have to be before finalization...

Chuck