MF3/MF4 rendering my DVD compliant files - why?

[MrRaines]

My first post here, hello to all.

I have spent some time searching this forum on this issue but not really found an answer that's relevant to me.

Problem:

I have found that I have an issue which seems to strike at random. My TV archiving procedure is to record from source signal to my Pioneer DVD recorder (in DVD-Video mode) in SP quality (2 hours per DVD, full-D1 resolution). I then finalise the -RW disk and take upstairs to my PC, where I rip in IFO mode in DVDDecrypter to give me a single VOB containing the whole title. Then I edit with Womble MPEG2VCR to cut out ads etc. I save to an MPG file.

Then I load these titles into DVDMF3 or DVDMF4. Sometimes although the size of the files in Windows Explorer is under the target project size (4.38GB), I find that, at random, MF3 or 4 reports that the size of the project is well over the limit, despite the total size in Windows Explorer adding up to more or less exactly 4GB. Sometimes a size of between 5.5 and 7GB is reported.

Each title that is included in my project is handled in exactly the same way prior to use with MF3 or MF4. Yet MF insists on finding problems with titles at random, reporting them as bigger than they actually are. What is more - and this may be significant - even if I load ONLY ONE affected title into MF, and therefore the project is less than the 4.38GB limit, i am STILL told that the material will be re-encoded ("rendered") prior to burning or saving as DVD-Video files (or an ISO, for that matter).

This would indicate to me that there is something in the file that MF thinks is not DVD-Video compliant, and it therefore insists on re-encoding the material.

However all the material is, to my knowledge, completely MPEG2/DVD compliant. Sometimes I observe the issue with MF4, then load the exact same titles into MF3, and everything works fine. Or vice versa.

This didn't used to happen. But I find it happening with annoying regularity these days. Does anyone have any insight into what might be going on here, and suggest a workaround?

Appologies for the long post!

MrRaines

[maddrummer3301]

Hi,
Do you have the latest updates installed for MF3 and MF4? They are necessary.

Question:
In MF4 why aren't you importing the video using the importing feature and using another program.
In MF3 you can import the complete Mpeg2 video file if you make a playlist and assign the complete video as one playlist. MF3 will not break the video into chapters when importing a playlist "UNless" they are physically separate mpeg2 files in the VR_Movie.vro file.
If your recording in straight dvd-video mode set chaptering OFF and you can import the complete video using MF3. MF4 will import the complete video selecting the "Top selection Box". Subsequent selections are the chapters.

Just curious why your not using MF3 or MF4 to import the dvd's.
I do know that if you import from dvd more than one file to load on the timeline some of the additional files may be detected as non-dvd compliant when you really are.
When you importing using ulead and there are multiple files it's best to delete the thumbnails from the timeline and re-import the videos from the harddisk again. Maybe that is happening if your inserting muliple files at the sametime.

Using MF3 or MF4 you can simply "Drag & Drop" files to the timeline from explorer which is faster than the internal selection method (nice feature).

Renaming VOB's doesn't always work. VOB's are container files that can contain more than one mpeg2 file. If there's only one mpeg2 file in the vob then usually not a problem. If more than one then a definite problem and the vob must be completely smart-rendered out to a new mpeg2 file to be re-timestamped correctly along with other settings.

I would say possibly that the method your using to extract the video from the dvd's could be maybe causing a problem. Like I said, depends if it's only one video or more than one.

I would use MF4 or Nero to import the contents from the dvd. Then use womble to edit etc.

Like I said, I have encountered that problem but only when inserting or importing multiples files at the same time. After the importing is finished I remove the thumbnails from the timeline and re-import from the harddisk.

(You didn't post any mpeg2 properties of the problem video(s)).

Hope this helps,

MD

[MrRaines]

Thanks for the reply.

I have the latest (v4.04) MF4 patch applied. Are you serious about using the "import video" function from the recordable DVD?!?!? The import function takes an AGE to do absolutely anything. It makes the function unusable.

I don't have any VRO files as I use DVD-Video mode (as I stated in my first post). I rip the VOB file which I then open in Womble and Womble automatically saves the output file as an MPG file.

You say to delete thumbnails from the timeline and re-import again. So how is the second time you do it different from the first? I must be misunderstanding what you are saying.

I didn't know about drag and drop. I just tried it however and MF4 crashed and I had to terminate it in task manager.

I did not say that I renamed VOBs. I said I opened VOBs in Womble and Womble saved them as MPG. There is always exactly one video file in each VOB as that's the point or using DVDDecrypter to rip them.

All the software DVD players on any computer I've used play all the MPGs I have created perfectly without a problem. I think the problem is with MF or an interaction between MF and Womble. It could even be the way the Pioneer recorder records things. But if it was the recorder I'd expect every title to manifest the same problem.

What MPEG2 properties would it be beneficial for me to post?

They are PAL, DVD-Video (720x576) full-D1, 25 FPS.

Thanks for the reply but I'm not any nearer to finding the issue.

[MrRaines]

Interesting!

I just tried TMPGenc DVD Author. I imported a "problem" clip - the size is reported as 1.33GB (which is correct). I wrote out to DVD files. Total project size 1.34GB.

Then if I "Import Video" in MF3, the project I just saved in TMPGenc is imported as 2.54GB - the exact same size as if I just pull the MPEG file into MF3.

I'm confident the problem is with MovieFactory.

[maddrummer3301]

Hi,

>>You say to delete thumbnails from the timeline and re-import again. So >>how is the second time you do it different from the first? I must be >>misunderstanding what you are saying.

That's when you use the importing feature of MF and there is more than one mpeg2 file to import.

>>I have the latest (v4.04) MF4 patch applied. Are you serious about using the "import video" function from the recordable DVD?!?!?
>> The import function takes an AGE to do absolutely anything. It makes the function unusable.
Not usually on my machines. I admit some do take awhile to decode and
that seems to be the way the menuing & chaptering system is setup. The
program searches through all the chapters to mark them etc.
Maybe changing your chaptering interval could correct this.
For making a dvd to import I either use No Chaptering or 15 minute chaptering. The 6 minute chaptering takes awhile to decode on a 2 hour movie.

My -VR disks import fast, DVD-RAM or DVD-RW both written in -VR mode. I also use Nero to import which takes longer.
Panasonic or Sony dvd recorders. Also mount the disks on a server and import via network. Works nice.

That may very well be your machine and dvd reader. Copying the contents of the VIDEO_TS folder and importing from the harddisk also works.
Your correct and some dvd's do take a long time to import. It can't be your dvd recorder. Pioneer is good equipment.

>>>I have spent some time searching this forum on this issue but not really found an answer that's relevant to me
>>>I didn't know about drag and drop. I just tried it however and MF4 >>>crashed and I had to terminate it in task manager.
That shouldn't happen. Maybe there's is something wrong with the MF installation and that's the problem.
On a dual-monitor system I drag & drop all the time.

>>>Thanks for the reply but I'm not any nearer to finding the issue.

It's a hard issue to troubleshoot.
Good luck finding it.

MD

[MrRaines]

I'm disappointed that this bug is such a problem. That it strikes at random is what makes it more frustrating.

The problem is that there is no other product that is as easy to use with as flexible a menu system. Otherwise I would probably use it.

Thanks for the input.

[MrRaines]

Ok. I appear to have found a workaround.

I loaded three titles (the first of which was a "problem" title) into TMPGenc DVD Author. It correctly guaged the project size at a smidge over 4GB. I wrote out to DVD files. I then got the TMPGenc DVD burning tool to make an ISO of the files. Then I loaded the ISO in Daemon Tools and re-ripped the "offending" title.

Annoyingly, MF3/4 still report the re-ripped title as 2.57GB - when it's clearly 1.33GB in Windows Explorer. If it gets the size wrong you can bet your house it's also going to want to re-encode the file when writing out a project to disk.

Then I tried something else. I did an "import DVD-Video" in MF4, and pointed it at the DVD files that TMPGenc had just written out. It took a few minutes to import - but when it did, the project size was listed correctly in MF4, and so I could create my own menus etc, and write back out to DVD files again, complete with menus, with no re-encoding.

So it's a pain, but it's an option. In future I will be loading up each MPG into MF4 to check that it's happy with the material, before I erase the original material off my PVR.

If TMPGenc had the menu capabilities of MF4, I'd probably switch over to it in a heartbeat over this issue alone.

[MrRaines]

Another workaround.

I have been finding that even if I rerecord the show off my PVR to another disk, re-rip and re-edit, the same show most often will exhibit the same refusal to work properly in MF3 or 4. Therefore.....

I analysed a "broken" MPEG2 file with DVD-Lab Pro. It reported that the video had "open GOPs". After demuxing the file to mpv/ac3 files, and authoring the one title to DVD files, I renamed the only VOB created (it was a 20 minute show so only about 620MB, well under the 1GB VOB limit) to an MPG and tried to use it again with DVDMF4.

I found that the title now works as it should.

It's a bit of a pain, but for the 10-20% of titles that go wonky, it's easier than writing a whole DVD's worth out using TMPGenc DVD Author then importing it all into MF4 and recreating menus.

I'm still bemused as to what's going on, the repeated problems with the same original program would seem to indicate an issue with the original source material, however this material goes over a SCART cable in analogue form to my DVD recorder, where it is re-encoded - I would expect the issue to be with something the DVD recorder is doing, or with Womble MPEG2VCR - at least somewhere in the digital realm.

Does anyone reading this know of a more efficient way to correct "open GOPs"? The GOP fixer in Womble doesn't find any issues with my "problem" files.

[MrRaines]

Another workaround. Simply open the offending title in Womble MPEG Video Wizard, and resave. This fixes everything.

I guess this points the finger at Womble MPEG2VCR.

[htchien]

Check http://phpbb.ulead.com.tw/EN/viewtopic.php?t=12358 for GOP settings, 5 post down.

Best regards,
H.T.