MSPro Trial

Ormond Williams · Post by **Ormond Williams** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:33 am

I am trying out MSPro8 and may upgrade from VS9. This depends on whether it will do what I want.

The video is captured from Panasonic camera via firewire. Pal system is used.

I am trying to make short video loops that are seamless when repeated.

1. The first issue is to try to find a start and end frame (that are both very very similar) about 10 to 20 seconds apart. It would be great if frames that are that distance apart could be compared side by side, but I cannot find a way to do this in MSPro8 or any other software that I have.
Is this possible in any software???

2. The second issue is that when I make a video file of running water over rocks, from an avi (that looks great) I get a result that is made of lots of squares and looks like crap. I have tried many combinations of settings using: Pal DVD and Mpeg-2 compression with quality on 100, Video data rate 6000 and 8000, perform non-square pixel rendering both on and off.
Could this be due to water running over rocks being a problem to render as mpg or is there some setting I have missed? (Other subjects render OK)

3. The userguide says, when using the trim window, click on the end of the video in the timeline, then to use the arrow keys to move back or forward, one frame at a time. I have had no success using the arrow keys, they do nothing! How can I get this to work?

I don't do a lot of normal video editing so I do not want to buy MSPro if it is not satisfactory for making video loops.

Thanks!

Terry Stetler · Post by **Terry Stetler** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:38 am

Hang on tight kiddies, as we aren't gonna be in Kansas anymore

1. Seeing both start frame and the current trim frame

First open the Trim window (Windows menu) and size it so both its frames match the size of the main Preview window. Now arrange the Preview and Trim windows so the Trim is on the left and the Preview is on the right.

Now put your clip on MSP8's Video1 track and drag the Preview Windows slider until an image appears (1-2 frames), then return it to the first frame. This shows the first frame.

Now when you drag the right side of the clip you'll see the first frame in the Preview Window, the last frame in the right side of the Trim window and the last frame minus 1 in the left side of the Trim window as below;

If you think you'll have the need to do this again I'd highly recommend opening the Windows/Layout Manager and saving this as a custom layout. You can also set a hotkey so you can call it up from the keyboard.

2. Encoding MPEG's with high in-frame motion

Flowing water, sunlit waves and fast sports action are among the toughest things to encode to MPEG or other temporal compressions (DivX, WMV etc.) without generating artifacts along the way.

You had the right idea in setting a quality of 100 and a high bitrate, but that bitrate should be CBR and not VBR in this situation. Because of the complex lighting and motions this is also where the "normal" settings are not enough and the Advanced MPEG menu comes into play.

Once the bitrate, CBR and quality are set next click on the Advanced menu button in the Compression tab. Once the Advanced menu opens you'll quickly realize that there are a ton of MPEG settings you never knew were there.

For now ignore 98% of them and just deal with the following settings that deal with in-frame motion. Start by browsing to the "Advanced Video Settings tab". Once there check both the "Do half-pel search" box and the "Enable" box for "Auto set motion vectors". Now set a value of 16 or more in both the "Horz pel movement" and "Vert pel movement" spin boxes.

Half-pel (half pixel element) will enable subpixel searches to pick up small movements better. The large horiz and vert motion vectors will help with pixelization due to fast in-frame movemements by searching for pixels in motion over a larger area from frame to frame.

You might also want to increase the "Noise sensitivity" setting from its default value of 5 (3-7 is typical for DV clips) to a higher value more often used for analog captures (5-14 is typical for analog). I'd probably start with 10 or so. This could help with any pixelizations already in the camera footage due to the lighting, motion etc. Camera codecs are very good, but not perfect.

These settings will make for slower rendering, but should reduce pixelization due to movements both large and small. If the pixelization is reduced but not gone up the horiz and vert motion vector settings by a few numbers and see what happens.

Neeless to say I'd start by rendering a short segment of the project by rendering a preview range until it looks good and only then render the whole project.

3. The arrow keys

I don't use the kbd much, but IMO the manual is either wrong or the arrow keys don't work here either. One more item for the first service pack I guess.

I'd just zoom in until the mouse movement necessary to drag the end of the clip one frame at a time is large enough to use the mouse alone.

Ormond Williams · Post by **Ormond Williams** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:48 am

Wow!!!
Thanks Terry! Looks like I have come to the right place for help with this software!
I will study your answer thoroughly and attempt to carry out your instructions and see how I go.

Terry Stetler · Post by **Terry Stetler** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:17 am

One other thing came to mind after I posted that reply.

MPEG's consist of mainly calculated frames (P and B frames) between widely spaced "real" bitmaps (I frames). As such reducing the number of P & B frames and increasing the number of I frames can up the quality of high motion video by lessening the dependence on motion vector calculations, but this comes at the cost of increased file size.

If you want to try this browse to the MPEG Advanced/Video Settings menu and reduce the I frame value from 12 (for PAL; NTSC defaults to 15) to 6.

This will reduce the number of P and B frames per I frame and therefore increase the number of I frames (real bitmaps) per second. Generally speaking more I frames per second = higher quality.

Devil · Post by **Devil** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:15 pm

3) Arrow keys

Did you hold down the mouse button when using the arrow keys?

Terry Stetler · Post by **Terry Stetler** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:29 pm

In my case, yes.

Ormond Williams · Post by **Ormond Williams** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:13 pm

Yes I did hold down the mouse button. I tried holding down left, right and both buttons and tried every arrow key I could find on the keyboard, but nothing works.
I wonder if there is a setting in the preferences? I will look into that, but I think its unlikely!
Perhaps the trial version has this disabled?

Ormond Williams · Post by **Ormond Williams** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:57 pm

1. MSPro8 doesn't appear to have any facility to burn DVD's like VS9 has, so it appears that I would have to also purchase either Movie Factory or DVD workshop if I want to make DVD's.
Can you please give me your thoughts and recommendations on these programs?

2. There is also Video Graphics Lab available as well. I would like to know if you think this is a useful program and what your recommendations are?

3. Ulead has special upgrade pricing (from VS9) to MSPro8, but no upgrade price on the bundle "Video Production Suite". If I decided to buy Video Production Suite and the Video Graphics Lab, should I contact Ulead to enquire about a special price, as I already have VS9?

Thanks for your help!

Devil · Post by **Devil** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:49 am

1. The full version of MSP8 comes with a modified version of MF4 but the trial version doesn't. If MF4 is OK for your authoring needs, then you need buy nothing extra, beyond MSP8.

2. VGL would be useful if you have a use for it. It contains VideoPaint and CGI. VP permits rotoscoping and other animation effects. CGI is essentially a super-duper titler. I've used VP a small number of times in many years and CGI once (to produce a logo clip).

3. VPS is already a special offer over the cost of the individual boxes. If you consider it worthwhile to buy the contents as individual upgrades, well that's up to you. You can try contacting Ulead, but don't be too surprised if they don't make a special offer on a special offer.

Ormond Williams · Post by **Ormond Williams** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:13 am

Devil,
Thanks for those answers.

It seems that the modified version of MF4 might be adequate for most peoples needs. I am a bit concerned that the info about MF4 says "compatible with most DVD players or computers."
"Most" is a word that instills a bit of trepidation.

VGL might not be necessary at all.

Terry Stetler · Post by **Terry Stetler** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:50 am

"Most" is a normal and sensible bit of legalese given that a burned DVD's playability on any deck is dependent on several factors;

1. the age of the deck. Decks more than a few years old don't often play DVD-R media well, much less the newer DVD+R or the DVD +/- RW formats.

2. many decks don't play recordable media at the full DVD bitrates, topping out at around 7000 - 8000 kbps or so. Not much of a problem given that the vast majority of projects can be encoded at 6000 kbps or even less with the proper settings.

3. many brands of DVD recordable media, even from "name" companies, are often cheaply made and troublesome. Takes a bit of research to sort this one out at times.

The limitations of various media types and DVD decks vs. playability can be researched on this site;

Main: http://www.videohelp.com/

DVD media: http://www.videohelp.com/dvdmedia

DVd decks: http://www.videohelp.com/dvdplayers

Researching this site before purchasing decks, burners, media etc. is highly recommended.

An interesting bit of experience I've gleened by going through many decks is that the cheaper Chinese brands often outperform the "name" Japanese/Korean etc. brands in what they'll play.

ex: I have a $35 Norcent DP-501M deck purchased at a drug store that'll seemingly play anything round with a hole in it: VCD, SVCD, xVCD, xSVCD ("x" formats exceed the normal VCD/SVCD bitrates), MPEG-4, MP3, WMA, Dolby, DTS, JPG image discs etc. etc.

Try that on many name decks and you can forget it...then there is that price

That deck is good enough that I have it and connection gear (terminal strip, video conversion box, cables etc.) in a small aluminum briefcase as part of my portable gear.

Ormond Williams · Post by **Ormond Williams** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:11 am

Terry,
I have followed your excellent instructions on how to locate similar frames and I am very happy with the result. In fact I pushed the left panel of the trim window off the screen, so that I could only see the right hand panel and this enabled me to make that panel and the preview window larger.

I also tried changing the advanced settings as you indicated, on a small video clip of running water with green weeds in the water. This came out very well as an mpg.
I will have a go with the other clip of water over rocks soon and see how that one goes.

It's looking more likely that I will buy the software. I am buying it on behalf of my church as I will be using it for church purposes.

I will be asking more questions from time to time if you don't mind.

Thank you for your help! Thanks also to Devil!

Terry Stetler · Post by **Terry Stetler** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:45 pm

Bring on the Q's Ormond. Glad to be of assistance.