Lip Sync Problems

[steeleye]

Has anyone had consistent success encoding analog video tape recordings and authoring the DVD with audio and video in sync throughout (NTSC standard)? I am becoming quite discouraged over this, having wasted innumerable hours and having created now countless coasters. My system is the following:

P4 processor running at 1.6Ghz
512MB RAM
20G primary hard drive
120G accessory internal hard drive with two equal partitions (defragmented)
ATI Radion 9000 series video card with MMC
Sony DRU-540A Internal E-IDE/ATAPI Dual-Format DVD ReWritable Drive
Windows XP with service pack 2

During capture with ATI MMC, I encode at half D1 resolution of 352x480 with a VBR of 4000 kbps, no deinterlacing, maximum motion estimation, P:B frame setting of 2:2, 16-bit stereo audio at 48kHz and 256 kpbs, and no video soap. I monitor the capture for dropped frames, stopping and restarting if the number exceeds 5.

I have tried video editing with both DMF3 and Videoredo without any evident difference. I import the video into DMF3, trim and/or edit if not already accomplished with Videoredo, create chapters, and burn to disc. I have tried checking and unchecking "do not convert compliant MPEG files," and have actually had better success with lip sync when unchecked (although with a reduction in quality of both picture and smoothness of motion). The lip sync problem is usually rarely more than a fraction of a second and seems to come and go with each chapter - it does not get progressively worse over time. Of course, playing the source mpeg with Windows media player shows perfect sync.

I have also tried the suggestions listed in this thread: http://phpbb.ulead.com.tw/EN/viewtopic.php?t=11
However, this only succeeded in increasing the processing time and causing distortion of the music track for the menus.

I know I am beating a tired horse with this issue but did want to share my experience, especially if the Ulead folks are monitoring the forum!

[steeleye]

I forgot to say that I have installed all the latest updates and patches to DMF3

[gastro]

Have you run Quickstream Fix from VideoReDo on the mpegs before authoring with MF?

[Merlin]

I've only had one video that I have had audio and video in sync issues with. This was originally captured in dvd format with mpeg layer 2 audio. I tried to convert it to ac3 audio and the result was that it lost it's sync..

[steeleye]

Gastro,

I tried editing my most recent capture from DMF3 with Videoredo and Quickstream Fix on the final file. DMF3 gives me this message: Convert step got some problems! (4525)

[gastro]

I suggest you visit VRD's site and ask Dan what the problem could be. He would be very interested to hunt down any potential bugs. You can even upload a small clip to his website.

[DVDDoug]

I'm starting to think that there are a few different causes for this symptom...

In my case, and perhaps in yours, I think it was caused by corrupted MPEG files. I'm using different software (Video Studio & DVD Workshop), and I got-around the problem by trimming each clip and saving each trimmed clip in a different file. Then I "spliced" the already-trimmed files together in a new project. Of course, this was the last of many experiments, wasted hours, and a few coasters too... before I wised-up and started using RWs, and trying-out the hard-disk version first.

BTW - The MPEG format was not designed to be edited.

Besides VideoReDo, a couple of other programs that are rumored to fix MPEG files are: Womble Video Wizard ($120) and PVAStrumento (free).

In my case, I made an unedited DVD which was perfect, but when I made one with the "offensive scenes" edited-out, I had sync problems. I concluded that the editing process (Ulead Video Studio) was causing the problem. As in your case, the edited file played fine with Windows Media Player.

I downloaded the trial version of Womble Video Wizard last night, and I'm going to try it out on a new project I'm starting.

[maddrummer3301]

Hi,
You asked if anyone has had continuous success with ATI9000 AIW card?
I have one of those cards in a machine (2.8ghz).

Over 1 year of success recording videos using the ATI recorder, then
pulling them into VS products and creating Dvd's.

When you create the template for recording select Mpeg2-DVD not just
Mpeg2. This will enable the use of Lpcm audio also(drop-down box).
Never had a problem using Mpeg audio.at 224kbs or 256kbs.
FrameSize = Pick a Dvd compliant size (Mine is 720x480).
I've been using P=4 and B=2 with GOP's Checked ON.
If you are planning to edit the video at all use GOP's (Group_Of_Pictures).
The rest you know.

I did have a problem when I first installed the card with one of the drivers.
The driver was creating a bad Mpeg2 file that would cause problems when
playing back in a dvd player. The problem would take awhile to show up
which was why I didn't pick it up for awhile.

The only suggestion I can make since I've been using a few of the ATI cards
is you cannot mix the Catalyst driver with the wrong MMC software.
The MMC software must match the catalyst driver. The catalyst driver is
the video drivers, control panel interface and capture drivers (DAO).
The MMC is only the software that interfaces with these drivers.

Like I said after upgrading to the next Catalyst and MMC that was released
I no longer had the problem. I found a way using Ulead software to quickly
check if the file was good or not.

Your problem sounds like the ATI software is capturing "Drop_Frame" and
Ulead is rendering it as "Non_DropFrame" which causes the audio to slowly
drift behind the video (NTSC).

Even though ATI has many releases of the Catalyst and MMC I've stayed
with "Catalyst 4.2" and "MMC 8.9". They work best on my system.

One last thing make sure you are using the latest Directx drivers. ATI writes
it's code in accordance with the latest Directx versions.

Hope this helps,
Good luck,
Computers.....BLAH!!
MD

[steeleye]

Thanks for the responses. After many more hours of experimentation and at least 20 bad DVD's, I have found that the most consistent way of achieving lip sync is to let DMF3 always reencode the source MPEG, whether it is compatible or not. That brings me to the questions of 1) how much quality degradation occurs when reencoding MPEG, assuming all parameters are the same between the inital encoding (with ATI MMC in my case) and reencoding with DMF3 (resolution, VBR, average bit rate, etc), 2) should I do the initial encoding of analog material in AVI instead, and 3) why are the file sizes output from DMF3 substanitally larger when allowing DMF3 to reencode an MPEG with the same parameters used in the initial encoding compared to when the "do not reencode" box is checked?

[Bandit]

Steeleye,

Maddrummer probably hit the nail on the head. I experienced lip sync problems awhile back, fairly regularly. Before I tried to trace down the problem I sent my system in for some upgrades. 1.8gb to 2.8gb P4 hyperthreading, 512mg ram to 1gb ram, 60gb storage to 300gb, and a cheap capture card to ATI 8500 Pro. No lip sync problems since and that has been two years. I also experienced long rendering times and choppy video. In my case the upgrade in system solved these problems. I'm guessing that my old system could not keep up with the data demand and possibly caused the above problems. I do know that the added ram made a huge difference. I've be lucky to have burnt several hundred edited (MSP 7) DVDs with only one coaster (I tried to squeeze in 4.3gb on a disc).

I think that computers and video editing can be compared to human relationships - they are all pretty much the same, but they are all different. What woked great with one can be hell with another. Been there - done that.

Bandit

[maddrummer3301]

More ATI stuff:
>I found a way using Ulead software to quickly
>check if the file was good or not.

To diagnose the Mpeg2 files that gave me trouble I loaded them back
into MF3. This time I watched closely how Ulead would be able to
seek within the Mpeg2 file.
Going to the "Create Chapter Menu" when the file is compliant you
should be able to click on the END icon and quickly seek to the
"Complete" end of the file. Also moving the slider to other points
within the video should be responsive (not time consuming or very
sluggish).
The real test that tells me there is something wrong is I would set up
auto-chaptering to approx 6-10mins. When MF3 is finished with the
last chapter there is a small gap left over at the end of the file that would
be less than the chapter/time setting. At that point if I clicked on the END
icon the pointer "Would-Not" traverse to the end. It would basically sit
at the beginning of the last chapter that was marked.

Anyway, a good compliant file will traverse and seek quickly from the
beginning completely to the end. If it doesn't there is probably something
wrong with time-stamping/Gop's etc.
A good file should be able to jump from the beginning to the absolute end.

The ATI recorder has MAX and Target Settings. It appears that MF3 reads
the Mpeg2 file as the MAX bit_rate setting used in the ATI recorder.
That isn't the true bit_rate of the video, the target bit_rate should be
I would think. Probably should use an program to analyze this.
I will have to test that when I get time.

Probably should have posted much earlier but "Smart Rendering" should
be used carefully. If one does alot of editing and the project properties
don't match the source video ulead products can choke with this.
I think this is caused by the source material being identified as xxxx
bit_rate when it's actually a different bit_rate.
When smart-rendering works it's really encodes fast and the
video looks good because the unedited portions are still the original
encoding.
Well, posting my experience with the ATI cards hopefully to save others
the problems I had to figure out.

HD INFO:
Needed a video card that outputs HD. The ATI9600XT in one machine
does that with an add-on adapter but I wasn't very satisfied with it. You
have to disconnect the 2nd monitor and install the analog adapter.
Couldn't get a switching box to work properly. Probably shunting resistors
in the switching box fools the video card into thinking a vga monitor is
still connected.

Bought a Nvidia GeForce 6600GT. Really performs as advertised, you can
switch resolutions on a TV on the fly. Using this as the main video card
along with a ati analog TV wonder pro(pci) makes nice video also.
So if one needs to output HD resolutions and upconvert SD video to
HD resolution the Nvidia series works nice. Also, one doesn't have to
switch cables around once they are connected. Upconverting a video to
HD resolutions doesn't necessarily produce a better picture. Many videos
look best at the resolution they were mastered at.
I'm still trying to figure out why when outputting via the S-Video port
in SD mode and turning on progressive scan on the TV it's so CLEAR.
Much clearer than the ATI cards that output to TV. The Nvidia card must
have very good video output chipsets.

MD