VS9 Compression Settings don't match Recommendations

[bstansbury]

I posted a long note at the end of the Sticky "REcommended Settings" and today tried to follow those recommendations. I captured a new video through my Camcorder in DV AVI mode with recommended settings. I then editted out the first 15 seconds of the avi and saved the project. Then I went to play the project and it re-rendered the entire video. So much for smart rendering. I thought it would only render those frames that had changed, not the entire video.

Anyway I went on to the next step which was to go to share and create a video file in MPG format. The steps in the recommendations don't match what my version of VS9 can do. It says to set the MPEG values using the "Custom" settings. You can't access any of the MPEG settings once you enter the "Save Video File" mode. Plus the settings that are there don't match what I want to do.

Any suggestions????

[Ken Berry]

Sorry -- but I for one don't quite understand what you are doing. OK. You start off with DV/AVI, slightly edited. Then you say "I went to play the project and it re-rendered the entire video." But if your edited DV is in the timeline, and you click on the play button under the preview screen, and choose Project instead of Clip, only the project as then saved is played back. It will take a few seconds to start, but there is no rendering, including smart rendering, involved in that particular process. It is simply playback.

Or did you go to Share > Create Video File and create ('save'??) a new file of your edited project? If you selected DV format, then it should only have taken a short time to produce the new file, depending on your computer and how long the clip was to start with. But if it was DV to DV, then there would have been no degradation in quality.

If, on the other hand, you selected DVD or mpeg-2, then if you started with DV, Smart Render does not come into the equation as you are converting the whole of your DV into a new format.

Anyway, you say then that you in any case went to create an mpeg-2 file. In my version of VS 9, when I click on Share > Create Video File, I get a drop down menu with a large selection of possible templates, starting with DV, and moving though 4:3 and 16:9 DVD, mpeg-2, VCD, SVCD etc. The properties of each are displayed in the pop-up window when you click on each one.

OK. If none of them suit what you want, then you click on 'Custom' at the bottom of the drop down menu, and then you have another pop-up window where you can save the name of your new file and choose the exact format. A bit over halfway down, you will see 'Save as Type'. If you are producing a DVD, then make sure mpg is selected. Then click on 'Options' to the right and a bit below on that window, and another pop-up with three tabs should appear. In the various tabs you can change the settings to suit exactly what you want in that particular mpeg. You say 'the settings that are there don't match what I want to do'. Since I am not sure exactly what it is you want to do, I can't help you there.

[bstansbury]

Ken,

Thanks very much for your quick response. Let me jump past your first comments to the point where the point the DVD options popup comes down. It list several NTSC DVD options but none match the "Recommendations". If i hit "Custom" nothing comes up. I get a fixed screen of the last NTSC DVD I selected with no options to change anything. The point is "Custom" in my system does not bring up a normal selection menu as you would expect like in Capture mode.

Now back to the other points. After I edited the video, saved it, then selected to play the project, it went into render mode and took 30+ minutes to render it and play the avi file. Believe me,.. I've been using VS6,7,8, and 9 for about 2+ years.

As far as the help question, all I want to do is burn a successful DVD starting from a Captured AVI video. I've been doing it my way for 2 years and not had that much problem. So now I'm trying to do it the way that is "REcommended", even though it seems strange. In the past whenever I capture and edit a video in avi and then play it, I then go straight to "Create Disk" mode. I don't understand why anyone would waste the time to "Save a video file". If I need to I create a menu and add chapters and then test the final results. If it plays OK, I save it to a Video_TS folder (I don't ever burn in VS). If the file is too big, I shrink it to fit using DVD2one and then burn it in Nero.

Anyway, my "Other Computer System" is still in the process of "Saving the Video file", and looks to be about 40% done after several hours of compression into MPEG. Once I get this done I will have to open the project again, add menus and chapters and then "Create Disk". In this mode It usually takes many hours to create the disk files. What I'm hoping is that since I saved the video file first the only new mpg files that have to be created will be the menus and the rest won't have to be touched again. But we shall see.

I really apprecaite your help and interest in my post. I'm not trying to be argumentative about this. I'm a dedicated VS user just try to get it right and do it right. It looks like you're somewhere in Europe, maybe in England. I'm in California. Hope you're having good weather there.

[Ken Berry]

All I can say is that it sounds as though you have a strange version or set-up of VS 9. Not having accessible options under Custom is the first and major point. And I honestly don't know why this is so.

But I am still puzzled by your initial playback problem. You say "After I edited the video, saved it, then selected to play the project, it went into render mode and took 30+ minutes to render it and play the avi file". Well, I am puzzled by exactly what you meant by "it" when you say your 'saved it' and how you did it. I would simply have thought you meant 'I saved the project', as at that point your work consists of one or more edited video clips in the timeline, linked together by a project file (.VSP) and it is not at this stage an individual video file which can be 'saved' as such. And if you do in fact mean that all you saved was the project file, and then hit Project playback, then, as I have already said above, no rendering should be involved at all since you are not producing a new file, simply playing back a project in Project mode. I suspect you must have 'High Quality Playback' selected in File > Preferences > General > Playback Method, instead of the fast 'Instant Playback'. This would probably account for the time taken, though even still, it seems a bit excessive. A temporary preview file might be generated in your designated folder, but this does not amount to rendering, and as I have also already said, if you are still in DV mode, then there is no loss of quality anyway.

Your other computer also seems to be taking an excessive amount of time in producing the mpeg-2 -- you say 'saving' the video file, though I assume you mean 'Creating' the video file. However, I have no idea of the specifications of either of your computers or how long your project is. You can see my own computer specifications by clicking on the System button at the bottom of my post, and make comparisons. Roughly speaking, for a 10 minute DV/AVI project, it takes around 11 to 12 minutes to produce the final mpeg-2 on my computer, or roughly twice that time if I use two pass encode. I find that an acceptable length of time, though on a much older computer and using versions 7 and 8, it could take up to about four times as long for a single pass encode.

And yes, you are completely right about the apparent illogic of insisting on the recommended procedure of first producing a video file and then taking the further step of creating a disc. (I hasten to add that I had nothing to do with the preparation of the recommended procedures, and vary them to suit my own needs -- mainly, I accept the templates provided, or use my own custom one for my final DVD.) The program is obviously designed to work either way, and if your way works for you, by all means use it. It is just that not all computers were created equal (let alone their operators!! ), and over the 3 years I have been on this Board, a hell of a lot of people, using anything from VS7 on (and even some using much earlier versions) were having problems with their computers freezing, or crashing, or producing coasters, or freezing in the burn, or refusing to burn, or producing discs with out of sync video and audio, and the common thread in all these problems was that they were using your preferred method. But for whatever reason, the architecture of their computers was not up to the job.

As you well know, video editing is a highly demanding process, not only on us, but especially on our computers. Rendering a video from DV to mpeg-2 is particularly demanding of computer resources. Your routine involves lumping that already very demanding process together with preparation of menus, chapters, multiplexing and creating the DVD structure and, for most people, actually burning the disc (which however is probably the least demanding part of the whole process) -- and all this together at the same time, on the fly. And as I say, a hell of a lot of people's computers just don't seem to be up to the job.

And when you think about it, in fact you only "lose" at most a couple of minutes on the whole job by first producing a DVD-compliant mpeg-2, and then opening the burning module and inserting it, and proceeding from there. In your routine, it still has to render, just as it still has to render in the recommended procedure and that is going to take exactly the same amount of time, just as the multiplexing etc in both routines will take exactly the same amount of time. So in fact the only time you are saving is that involved in locating where your newly created mpeg-2 is and putting that in the burning module instead of the original project file. People seem to think they save a hell of a lot of time following your routine, but it is simply not the case --- [he adds hastily: when done correctly!!!! ] And if this extra minute or so is all it takes to make the difference between a coaster and a successful DVD for a lot of people, then it surely must be worth it.

By the way, to make another minor correction, you say, about the production of the mpeg on your other computer, "Once I get this done I will have to open the project again". In fact, you don't open the project again. You simply open the burning module (Share > Create Disc) and add the mpeg-2 you have created.

And no, I am not in Europe. As it says under my name, I am in Canberra, which is the capital of Australia. And we have been having some very hot weather here since we are in the middle of our hottest summer on record. On New Year's Eve, and again on New Year's Day, we went to nearly 105 degrees F or 40 degrees Celsius.

[bstansbury]

Ken,... Again,... thanks for your feedback. Wow,.. all the way from Downunder.

First, on the issue of "What I saved". I just save the project. I do that each time I finish an edit step. It is just a habit I got into. After the final save I go into the timeline and select to play the entire project. Because the "Recommended settings" were for "High Quality" that is what I set it to for this project. Normally I would have it set for Instant preview. It's clear that this is what caused the "Rendering Process". It was rendering as it was stated clearly on the screen.

My two system are each 3 GHz processors with 1+GB each. Both have over 600 GB of high performance 100 ATA EDI disk drives, each attached on individual busses provided by RAID motherboards. I also make sure I never have anything stored on my system disk and reserve a 250 GB disk for all project functions.

On re-opening the project, the "Recommendations" say to elimnate all clips and open a new project and then reload the "Saved Video File" that is what I ment. To get a clean empty project, I close the entire VS9 and restart it and load a "New Project", label it with a new name, load the video, and then go to Share to start the Menus, chapters, and finally to "Create Disk".

Tomorrow I will complete this process and let you know how things went. I still don't understand why I get no "Custom Window" when I select that option. It just goes to a fixed final window with non changable values. The appear to be the settings hard coded in VS9. I'll do more looking into this and comparing VS7 as I still have both on my systems.

[Ken Berry]

With your set-up on both computers, your rendering times are unbelievably long. Something seems definitely wrong with that.

Re the 'High Quality' setting: guess that is another aspect of the recommended procedures that I have never - and I mean never - implemented. I have never used anything except Instant Playback in any versions of the program I have used. So I have been unaware it actually renders the file. You say it takes 30 minutes to do so. I assume it must be a hell of a long video to take that amount of time. For a DV project to render a DV output should take less -- and in the case of your set-up, a good deal less -- than real time. Again with my 10 minute DV project, it takes a maximum of about 2 minutes to render a final DV file.

Re the Custom settings, when you open VS9, and without opening any project, can you go to Tools > Make Movie Manager and select New, then select 'mpeg', give it a name, and the three tabbed pop-up window appears where you can make your selection of custom settings? If so, then the new Custom name and settings should appear towards the bottom of the menu of format choices which appears when you go to Share > Create Video File or Create Disc. I have a couple of custom ones I use regularly which I created this way. But I can still use Custom actively, as I described, straight from the Create Video File or Create Disc dialogues, unlike you, it seems.

[bstansbury]

Ken, Thanks again for your help.

I guess "Seeing is Believing". Yesterday I went through the "Recommended" capture of my AVI files and then saved the video file in the mpeg format I wanted. It did take a long time, about 3 hours to convert the avi to 6000 mbs mpeg, but the video is 2 hours and 28 minutes long,.. so I guess that is not all that bad. The "Really good news" is this morning when I started the 2nd half of the effort using the "Recommended" process and started with a new clean project, went to "Share" and added my mpeg video file, then created the menus, then I made sure the "Create Disk", custom mpeg settings matched my source mpg. There were not the same so I fixed that. I got rid of action menus cause I did't want to make this test any more complex than necessary. I started the burn process and to my surprise it completed the 1st phase of Generating Disk files in less that 1 minutes. Then it took about 5 minutes to "Multiplex Video/Audio files, then another 3 minutes to finalize the VOB files and it was done. I was shocked.

To get past the capacity problem I set the disk to 8.5 GB capacity and the 2hr 28 Min ended up with about 6.5 GB of Vob files. For some reason PowerDVD got an error and did not recognize the file type. It also would not play is Ulead Media DVD player. It did play in Windows Media player and all the menus worked. As far as the capacity issue I raised. I think I have a much better way to resolve any capacity problems I come up with. I'm just going to create the disk at 6000 or 8000 which ever will fit on a DVD DL and Create it. Then I will use DVD2ONE to reduce it down to fit on one DVD. I have used this process on about 180 DVD's that I have ripped and have never been dissatisfied. In this way I don't have to worry 2 minutes about what the size of the project is or mess around with calculators and see how much time my menus took or how much video I editted out or anything like that. DVD2ONE is very fast. In the time it has taken me to type this note DVD2ONE has reduced my 6.5 GB video to 4.3 GB

Getting back to the "Recommended Process", I can see the advantage of creating the video file because that is the most difficult part of making a any project. It also gives you the chance to make final changes if you see something wrong at the last minute. I have several more videos to make this week so I will get the chance to test other parts of the process. I feel much better about the overall REcommended Process but I agree with you that there are a few steps that I don't use. I will go back to "Instant Preview" since I see no advantage to "High Quality" preview. Also I'm going to check out "Save Video File" agian and confirm that I can't set the "Custom" settings in Save Video File mode.

[bstansbury]

Ken,

One quick note. Once I pushed the VOB files through DVD2ONE to shrink them down to fit on a 4.3 GB disk, it corrected whatever the problem was in the VS9 VOB files and now the video plays is PowerDVD and other DVD players. That is one great feature of DVD2ONE. I have learned many time when I rip a DVD in DVDDecrypter that some of the VOB files don't come out right but DVD2ONE always fixes them and adds back any that are required and were missing from the rip process.

[jchunter]

Bstansbury,
Sorry you got derailed into using the "high quality" playback in Video Studio. Ulead should eliminate this "feature" entirely, as an option. AFAIK, in this mode, VS uses the Project Properties settings to render the project prior to playback, (which is where you can make the Custom settings). If you have DV video in the timeline and the Project Properties are set to mpeg2, you might as well go to bed, because it will be a long time before preview starts...

The recommended procedure is to set every detailed property manually, in every phase: Capture, Edit, Create Video, and Create Disk, each time, using the "Custom" or "Edit" button.

You have a fast computer and could save a lot of time by capturing directly to mpeg2, 720x480, 8000Kbps. My system has a 3.0 GHz CPU and captures to mpeg2 with no strain. Then, when you create your project video file it will take very little time because you will be utilizing Smart Render and not transcoding. (BTW, editing Mpeg2 does not visibly degrade picture quality as long as you keep the bitrate high.)

I would also recommend that you keep projects small: 5 - 15 minutes, making video files of each one. Then when you create a DVD, add several video files to bring the size up to 4 GB. This keeps the picture quality high. When you create a huge video file and then try to shrink it down to fit on a DVD, the quality degrades.

[2Dogs]

(BTW, editing Mpeg2 does not visibly degrade picture quality as long as you keep the bitrate high.)

Hi John!

try stepping thru your rendered MPEG-2 to MPEG-2 file with Virtual Dub, and check out the Macro pixels at transitions and clip junctions! When you watch it on DVD, you might notice a slight flicker, but once you've seen it in Virtual Dub, you'll know it's there! VS actually hides the affected frames, so you can't see the bad frames if you step thru in VS.

If you're not completely anal-retentive like me, however, direct to MPEG-2 capture will save heaps of time as you say, and a P4 3.0 should be able to capture to MPEG-2 with the quality slider up to 100% or thereabouts.

[bstansbury]

Wow,1... I'm over whelmed to get a response from the master himself.

JChunter himself.... I'm very happy you took the time to add a reply to this post. I'm kind of embarrassed to say that I've used VS5,6.7,8, and 9 all these years and never followed any recommendation. I have followed the Tutorials but not from beginning to end. Anyway I have had a lot of good success,.. and sad to say a lot of problems,... mostly due to lack of education. I had found a way of making things work as best as possible and then I stick with it. However, I'm very happy with what I have learned from the "Recommended Process". It is helping me become much more efficient in Digital Processing.

I now understand your point about "making sure the propoerties are set correctily". Each day I find something that was not right. Last night as I looked very close at the AVi files that I have capture over the last 3 years from my Camcorder are wrong and this has clearly added to the rendering time of any video I make. The avi file indicates my audio is at 16 bits, but at 38000 khz. DVD requires 48000 Khz. I went to my camera and searched until I found the setting to change it to 48000 Khz. The mystery is that the avi file should have said it was at 12 bit, since that is what my camera was set at.

As far as direct capture to MPEg. Yes my system it fast enough to capture without dropping any frames. However, When I edited the video in MPEg and then produced a DVD file, it was terrible. About the worst quality I've seen on my system. So I dumped it all and recaptured all 4 video disks in avi and I'm n the process of editing out the bad parts of those to make a new DVD. I can clearly see the higher quality in the avi files. My Sony Camcorder can give me the best quality and I just don't believe that the MPEG engine in VS9 can keep up with real time transfer of Digital Betacam data rate. There may have been 6 other settings that were wrong in the MPEG capture, but I don't have the time to go back and experiment to get it right. I Know that the AVi is the best quality, and converting afterwards is no strain on anything. Since my camcorder has built in TBC, I use if for everything I capture and load to my system,.. ie. Video's saved off of Satillite in MPEG format are played off my Satillite DVR and passed through S-Video + audio into my camera, where they are converted to Digital Video and Firewired to my PC with no distorsion or loss of data. Doesn't get any better. Same goes for my Hi 8 tapes, VHS tapes, etc.

My last request is the those people in the "KNow" would create a new REcommended Process that is updated and applies to VS9. We all know that there are still bugs in VS9 and we also know that Ulead is really not motivated to fix anything, unless it is really broken. They are more into working on VS10,.. after all that is where the money trial leads them.

With the money I've spent on upgrades to VideoStudio I could have purchased Ulead MediaStudio 8. The trouble is I still haven't used all the features that are in VideoStudio 9. I just want it to work without crashing.

Jc, again,.. thanks for your input. I can't imagine how many other users are out there that could really use a simplified guide to using VS9, or a new version of your REcommended Process. thanks again.

[jchunter]

Thanks for the kudos, but, in reality, Jerry Jones deserves the credit for decoding Video Studio. Jerry had been contracted by Ulead (I believe) as technical support for the user community several years ago. I just paraphrased and summarized his work, adding dire warnings, and got it posted as a sticky, to try to head off user problems before they happened . I asked to have that sticky closed to reply posts several times but the forum administrators have never complied, which has left it as another problem for new users who posted there for help.

When I crashed into this forum two years ago with VS7.0, my computer and VS were going belly up regularly and my picture quality was lousy. After I followed Jerry’s advice to manage properties, magically, everything settled down.

Many of these problems were, and still are, aggravated by a poor system of property defaults. After all, most new users don't know a Field Order from an eggplant, yet getting the properties right is essential for success. When you couple this with the fact that video editing is VERY complicated and difficult to test exhaustively, you have a recipe for lots of frustration for new users.

I have been urging Ulead to, at least, disable the "Create Disk" button if anything is in the timeline and to disable "Add Project" in the DVD burning module. This would prevent the most often-occurring new user problems. Storing preferences (which are really properties in disguise) in the Project file would also minimize confusion when working on more than one project at the same time.

As for editing mpeg2, I did a test on video of a resolution chart (Mpeg2, bitrate = 8000Kbps), which I recursively edited and re-rendered 6-8 times and examined each new edit for loss of resolution. I found nothing visible. I also shot video of the res chart and captured it in both mpeg2 and AVI(DV) formats. I found no visible difference in resolution. As a pragmatic perfectionist, this was good enough for me. My Mpeg2-edited videos all look great.

Edit: If your DVD that was made from edited Mpeg2 looks visibly bad, it was almost certainly caused by improper video property settings in some stage of the workflow.

In any case, the whole question is rendered moot by the appearance the affordable, compact high definition camcorders, whose resolution blows the socks off standard resolution video that has been edited by any means. Moreover, the video is stored already compressed on the miniDV tape as Mpeg2 and even higher compression standards (Mpeg4, H.264, Divx) will be used in the future.