Is panning supposed to do this?

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nocturne
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Is panning supposed to do this?

Post by nocturne »

Hi
New to PSP. Got the 2020 version it in the Humble Bundle this month.
I'm very surprised to see simply panning an 3000x1997px image produces lag and these kinds of artifacts on the screen.
I'm aware PSP isn't GPU accelerated, but I never see this in GIMP, for example. Even MS Paint pans this image without any graphical artefacts or lag.

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Image
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Re: Is panning supposed to do this?

Post by migf1 »

Yes, it's slow. But in my experience it doesn't produce lag, just artifacts until you release the mouse button: https://gyazo.com/15e845ca3084ab0678cee6ebf69a9994

That's a 4898x3265 image, on WIn8.1 x64 , Ryzen5 1600@3.4GHz, GTX 1050Ti, 16Gb RAM.
Same thing with PSP X7 and 2021.
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LeviFiction
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Re: Is panning supposed to do this?

Post by LeviFiction »

Like migf1 says, Essentially it's a re-draw issue with how PSP updates the display in their code. It's not actual lag.

On my computer, a 6000x4000 pixel image also shows those re-draw artifacts while dragging, but as soon as I stop dragging the image updates immediately. In PSP 2021 the Photography workspace uses a new framework that uses the Chromium browser framework to show the image inside of what is essentially a local webpage. Because Chromium is handling the preview of the image it looks a lot smoother when scrolling/panning the image as the browser was designed for the fast display of content, focusing on presentation over graphics editing functionality.

Without a doubt PSP's display is worst in class on this front. With GIMP, Photoshop, Affinity Photo all managing to show the same image without issue (Photoshop and Gimp showing slight tearing if I go fast enough). These redraw artifacts can be seen as far back as Paint shop pro 8. But it's just a display/redraw issue, the software on average is still working at full speed and is ready to go.
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Re: Is panning supposed to do this?

Post by Jean-Luc »

I have seen this artifact in the past.
I tested today with a 6000x4000 pixel image and I don't observe the artifact now on my system.
Could it be a Windows (i.e. hardware acceleration) or graphic card setting the cause of the problem?
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nocturne
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Re: Is panning supposed to do this?

Post by nocturne »

Sorry, but quite often there is definitely actual lag here as well, meaning the cursor and the image are trying to catch up for some time after I release the mouse button. Not so much in the Pan tool itself, but when another tool is selected, like the Paint brush, and I try using the Spacebar to pan the image around at 1:1 scale. I do a couple of mouse movements and let go of it, and the image is still moving trying to catch up for half a second all the while looking like a Windows XP Solitaire win screen.
And this is a simple one-layer JPEG with nothing drawn over it. I shudder to think what would happen if I had multiple layers with many brushes, transparencies, gradients and effects.

Contrast that to the GPU-accelerated 60 fps buttery smoothness of Affinity Photo, which is btw cheaper than a PSP upgrade, and Corel's product is not looking so good IMO.
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Re: Is panning supposed to do this?

Post by LeviFiction »

I don't see that with my brush. If I use spacebar to pan it pans only while I have my spacebar or mousebutton down. No lagging to catch up. I still see re-draw artifacts but as soon as I let go it stops in place. Whatever is making PSP react that slowly on your computer, is not a common issue.
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Re: Is panning supposed to do this?

Post by Jean-Luc »

nocturne wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:33 pm
Sorry, but quite often there is definitely actual lag here as well,
Make sure this option is enabled:
Window redraw.jpg
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Re: Is panning supposed to do this?

Post by nocturne »

Yes, thank you, Jean-Luc, I had noticed that option last night and while it indeed fixes the original problem while using the Pan tool itself, in my experience it does nothing for Spacebar panning when another tool is selected and being used. In that case, I still get the long redraw issue and often quite severe input lag, up to 1 second in length. As far as I can see, the option in question has zero effect on Spacebar-initiated panning.

However, I have also noticed that panning by method of directly clicking and/or dragging on either scrollbar is MUCH more responsive and far less prone to produce long visual artefacts as opposed to holding the Spacebar. I've detected no lag whatsoever when panning by dragging a scrollbar, and just very brief visual artefacts which can easily be ignored.
So my best bet seems to be to train myself to use scrollbars to pan around until it becomes muscle memory.

As for your earlier comment, I must stress again that this is a clean windows 10 install and no other application and game I have installed is exhibiting this kind of behavior. None of the other tools - GIMP, Paint.NET, MS Paint, Paint 3D, Affinity Photo/Designer have trouble panning larger images than this one, just PSP.

So please excuse my somewhat brash tone, the intention isn't to unfairly criticize this application, because I quite like PSP as a whole and the wealth of options it provides, especially in this price range. I was just unpleasantly surprised to find it having such a poor implementation of what many would consider a core functionality in a prosumer-level graphics editing program.

And strangely enough, Corel Painter 2020 uses GPU acceleration throughout the app, so why isn't it implemented in PSP yet? If someone is here with insider knowledge, are there plans to do so? Makes no sense for me to consider upgrading to PSP2021 when it too is still unaccelerated.
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Re: Is panning supposed to do this?

Post by nocturne »

LeviFiction wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:35 am
I don't see that with my brush. If I use spacebar to pan it pans only while I have my spacebar or mousebutton down. No lagging to catch up. I still see re-draw artifacts but as soon as I let go it stops in place. Whatever is making PSP react that slowly on your computer, is not a common issue.
I can't see what it might be. There are no other problems of this nature on my PC. The Windows install is fresh, I haven't tinkered with anything and all drivers are at their latest stable versions. I've tried resetting all the NVIDIA options to their defaults if this is somehow connected with screen refresh rates etc.(I have 75HZ 1080p monitor), but it made no difference. I'm stumped.

P.S. Seeing your username I've just realized that I'm currently going through your PSP Basics playlist on Youtube and just wanted to extend my thanks on that amazing tutorial series.
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Re: Is panning supposed to do this?

Post by LeviFiction »

I'm glad you like them, had no idea people were still watching those old things. Recorded back before I had Camtasia and YouTube's highest quality was 480p. xD
nocturne
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Re: Is panning supposed to do this?

Post by nocturne »

You can thank migf1 for that, as he has your playlist in his signature
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Re: Is panning supposed to do this?

Post by migf1 »

Yeah, Levi's done a great job with those! And since apparently Corel has barely touched any of the core-features coded by Jasc, most of Levi's vids are still relevant :)
Good Unofficial PaintShop Pro Tutorials: Creation CasselMake Shop ProHEC Image EditingLeviFiction PSP Basics
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