Not supporting DNG is a *bug* - let me explain

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sefer
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Not supporting DNG is a *bug* - let me explain

Post by sefer »

Hi,

I shoot using a Nikon D800 and my 14bit NEF files are usually around 50MB in size each. DNG saves me about 25% of disk storage, which translates to a lot of money when you shoot as much as I do. It also unifies the format no matter what cameras I use (Nikon, Pentax, Canon, Sony) so I don't have mixed files I need to support (install various plugins to support preview in Windows Explorer, for example).
I always convert my RAW files to DNG when importing them into my computer and I've historically been a lightroom user.

After reading an article about aftershot, I decided to give it a try. I downloaded the trial and I found out that my tens of thousands of RAW files are unreadable by it.

So... I understand that Aftershot cannot support converting/applying most of Adobe's internally defined metadata (exposure, contrast, highlights, shadows, radial and linear gradient filters, selective brush and more) - but reading the RAW file as a plain old RAW without applying any of Adobe's metadata is still good enough, the reason is that I'm going to use Aftershot forward, on new files and rarely use it to examine old files (and if I do, I'd just have to re-edit them using Aftershot).

I mean, this is obvious. (and if not, then Aftershot can bring up a popup message explaining that) - but between that and completely ignoring DNG files, there's a huge that just makes it worthless for many existing user to migrate to Aftershot. You are effectively telling users "we don't want you" - that's not only a bad business practice, but also alienates users from ever trying Aftershot again in the future.
If you want the product to reach some critical mass in terms of users I feel that this is a must - and there is no real barrier here, I'm willing to throw my old settings away, but I still must be able to read files imported using "Adobe DNG converter".

Despite searching the web, I was unable to find a satisfying explanation as to why the core DNG format is unsupported. It future proofs Aftershot as well since it will support files from future cameras (even if they did not release a version that can manage) as long as it's a DNG.

Thanks,
-- Sefer
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Re: Not supporting DNG is a *bug* - let me explain

Post by KOSKERS »

i have not tried to open DNG by ASP2
But i can open TIFF file normally by ASP2. unfortunately , ASP2 can not support NEF of my Nikon D3300. It looks so green. But Nikon D800 and Canon 5D Mark III is supported very well.
So u r lucky for some sitaution.
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Re: Not supporting DNG is a *bug* - let me explain

Post by KOSKERS »

I have tested it. DNG by Adobe not support.
Although ASP2 can import DNG type file. But it equal lie.
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Re: Not supporting DNG is a *bug* - let me explain

Post by nipponichi »

ASP supports a few camera-generated DNG like fro Leica, but no converted DNG.
Supported cameras are listed here: http://www.aftershotpro.com/de/products ... html#tab=5.
No word about DNG there. Don't know what you mean with "lie".

At Bibble times there was a long discussing between users and developers why DNG is not supported - unfortunately this is not available anymore.
Main reason I remember is that each camera should have to be fine tuned also for DNG, meaning double effort.

Have a look what e.g. Phase One tells about Capture One: "DNG support is for raw DNG only is not optimized for specific cameras."

I would really like to see results of certain RAW-converters, comparing original RAWs with DNG-converted ones ...
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Re: Not supporting DNG is a *bug* - let me explain

Post by Arnfinn »

Camera generated DNG is RAW. Adobe converted DNG is no longer a RAW file and is just the name of a container that by coincidence is identical to the camera file name...
By earlier explanations from Afx, Corel has to profile each camera twice if converted Adobe DNG is to be supported. I think we all agree that there's many other things we need Corel to focus their resources on before demanding them to profile each camera once more...

Converting to Adobe DNG is one thing, but what's the thought behind deleting all the originals...?

Adobe can and will continue to open all kinds of RAW files long into the next millennium, so from this viewpoint there's no need to convert, even if you want to continue using Adobe's products. I really can't see any benefits of the converted DNG format for any reason. I do use both Lightroom and Photoshop myself, and haven't converted a single file. No significant benefits, just the big drawback of being married to Adobe for the rest of your life... :mrgreen:
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Re: Not supporting DNG is a *bug* - let me explain

Post by KOSKERS »

nipponichi wrote:ASP supports a few camera-generated DNG like fro Leica, but no converted DNG.
Supported cameras are listed here: http://www.aftershotpro.com/de/products ... html#tab=5.
No word about DNG there. Don't know what you mean with "lie".

At Bibble times there was a long discussing between users and developers why DNG is not supported - unfortunately this is not available anymore.
Main reason I remember is that each camera should have to be fine tuned also for DNG, meaning double effort.

Have a look what e.g. Phase One tells about Capture One: "DNG support is for raw DNG only is not optimized for specific cameras."

I would really like to see results of certain RAW-converters, comparing original RAWs with DNG-converted ones ...
When i choose Open File in ASP2. The file is contain DNG file. ok. i dont know leica's RAW file is DNG file until u tell me.
Sorry.
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Re: Not supporting DNG is a *bug* - let me explain

Post by KOSKERS »

Arnfinn wrote:Camera generated DNG is RAW. Adobe converted DNG is no longer a RAW file and is just the name of a container that by coincidence is identical to the camera file name...
By earlier explanations from Afx, Corel has to profile each camera twice if converted Adobe DNG is to be supported. I think we all agree that there's many other things we need Corel to focus their resources on before demanding them to profile each camera once more...

Converting to Adobe DNG is one thing, but what's the thought behind deleting all the originals...?

Adobe can and will continue to open all kinds of RAW files long into the next millennium, so from this viewpoint there's no need to convert, even if you want to continue using Adobe's products. I really can't see any benefits of the converted DNG format for any reason. I do use both Lightroom and Photoshop myself, and haven't converted a single file. No significant benefits, just the big drawback of being married to Adobe for the rest of your life... :mrgreen:
Yes.As your words,no significant benefits. But i think i must do it.Because ASP2 can not support Nikon D3300 NEF file. it looks a little OR very green in a light environment or in dark environment.It is not a write-balance problem. ASP2 can not recolonize this RAW file by model of DLSR normally.
For the detail u can click this link. http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=56618
i am not only one find this issue. some others find this issue too.
http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=56620
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Re: Not supporting DNG is a *bug* - let me explain

Post by Arnfinn »

KOSKERS wrote:When i choose Open File in ASP2. The file is contain DNG file. ok. i dont know leica's RAW file is DNG file until u tell me.
Sorry.
Leica DNG file is a RAW file and as such should have been supported by ASP as every digital camera should have been suopported (in my opinion).
KOSKERS wrote:Yes.As your words,no significant benefits. But i think i must do it.Because ASP2 can not support Nikon D3300 NEF file. it looks a little OR very green in a light environment or in dark environment.It is not a write-balance problem. ASP2 can not recolonize this RAW file by model of DLSR normally.
For the detail u can click this link. http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=56618
i am not only one find this issue. some others find this issue too.
http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=56620
It's the same with the Nikon D3300 NEF as I wrote above. Corel should have provided a good camera profile support for that camera as well. I have seen that this off color version for that camera have been reported a while now, so I hope Corel will provide a quick upgrade to address that problem and a few others that has been introduced with this latest upgrade. Much of the frustration we see here arises from the very scarce comments from the Corel Team. A few words now and then could rest some of anxiety that's building up when it's been long since the last official comment...
Long time AfterShot Pro & Bibble user...
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Re: Not supporting DNG is a *bug* - let me explain

Post by KOSKERS »

Thank u so much.
i will wait
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Re: Not supporting DNG is a *bug* - let me explain

Post by cariocakev »

I came upon this year-old thread while searching for why Aftershot 3 is not opening DNG files unless they are straight from my Leica. It will not read DNG files produced by Adobe DNG converter nor raw scans as DNG from VueScan.

This *is* a significant disappointment. I am in complete agreement with sefer on this.

I am a working international photojournalist. I'm interested in Aftershot Pro in order to use the higher possible security and greater speed of Linux rather than Mac or Windows. I organize and maintain image archives intended to remain viable for at least a century. Conversion to DNG is indeed an important part of those considerations. Yes, one may lose some advantages of the camera's native raw files (but my very precise professional eyes fail to see any significant or important loss). Yes, it acknowledges the hegemony of Adobe Systems. But it is an open standard designed for longevity. Camera raw files in their myriad forms are designed on very short-term manufacturer goals. The ability to write non-destructive changes into the DNG file for future use (and without having to keep track of sidecar files) is an enormous archiving advantage. If DNG was such a weak standard, then why would Leica and Phase One -- the two camera manufacturers with the highest quality traditions and intentions in the business -- choose to write DNG files? And how, exactly, does an open and shared file format contribute addiction to Adobe software? As engineers they see the future as I do -- one in which your D200 or 30D files are no longer readable. They are not under any illusion that those camera-specific NEFs and CR2s will be readable into the next century let alone millennium. They created DNG not to hook you, but so you would hate them and other software designers less after they stop supporting your camera manufacturer's capricious and short-sighted file formatting from 20 years prior.

Adobe and everyone else will need to start deprecating file format compatibility with older cameras or the software will eventually bloat beyond even their standards. The very structure of software and computing will also fundamentally change in the near future making compatibility with raw files from cameras made in 2001 not worth any effort for engineers. Think punchcards, floppies and Wordstar files, or even typewriter ribbon and 8-track tapes.

Even very small projects like XnViewMP can read Adobe-converted DNG files. Even smaller open-source projects like LightZone can read Adobe-converted DNG files. UFRaw can read Adobe-converted DNG files. I have very high doubts that those projects are profiling cameras twice to make that happen, or undertaking enormous tasks to gain that compatibility. Aftershot Pro is, so far, the only raw file application I have found that does not.

From a shallow consumer perspective that simply looks lazy, arrogant or anti-competitive. From an engineering standpoint, all those above projects likely use the same libraries to read files -- dcraw and it's related bits. Corel is likely locked out of adopting that code due to copy-left licensing that prohibits commercial use. I have no idea exactly why Corel makes this choice, but they probably have ten percent or less of the engineers on ASP than Adobe does on ACR. Their budget is low to accommodate their affordable price. I sympathize. But fixing the problem is worthwhile to avoid that consumer perception of laziness, arrogance or anti-competitiveness.

Like sefer, I would not care if ASP were incapable of using embedded xmp data in the DNG files. I would be happy to re-tone the images as needed and let ASP write an xmp sidecar file with the changes for near-future reference. However, the choice to not read them at all is likely a deal breaker for me -- not because I couldn't work around it, but because it is just short-sighted.
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Re: Not supporting DNG is a *bug* - let me explain

Post by Zenettii »

A lot of users of Adobe software will have made the mistake of converting their raw files into dng. By not supporting it with the release of ASP3 is a missed opportunity of being able to convert such users.

I myself made this mistake of converting when I imported into LR for 5-6 months before I realised it was a bad move. Most of the files I've been able to extract, but not all, and since other software out there can support them, I find it hard to justify paying for a tool that can not in 2016. ASP3 trial looked promising until this hiccup.
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Re: Not supporting DNG is a *bug* - let me explain

Post by slm »

Sorry, I'm new to ASP and don't use DNG, but if I understand correctly what is being said here is ASP supports DNG from camera raw, but it doesn't support Adobe converted DNG, which makes me think they've bastardized the DNG format, it's not truly the open one like camera raw DNG is. Is this correct ?
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Re: Not supporting DNG is a *bug* - let me explain

Post by grubernd »

slm wrote:..which makes me think they've bastardized the DNG format, it's not truly the open one like camera raw DNG is. Is this correct ?
yes.

DNG is just a container format like ZIP.
or TIFF, PDF, et al.

there is no quality standard for what is inside,
except for those files where the camera has written the DNG.
use the Monkey to report bugs - include as much precise information as you can provide!
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Re: Not supporting DNG is a *bug* - let me explain

Post by nick-in-wales »

ASPv.3 supports Pentax DNGs without a problem, so does ASPv.2.4.

ASPv.3 does not appear to support Pentax PEF but ASPv.2.4 does.

I tend to leave my Pentax DNGs alone and export any changes to TIFF or JPG as those are standards which appear to be universally supported.

See this for more technical fun: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image ... ardization

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Re: Not supporting DNG is a *bug* - let me explain

Post by riegelstamm »

This is an old thread, but I'm posting since it's about the only one that addresses DNG files produced by Vuescan.

I contacted the developer of Vuescan about this issue, and he said that Vuescan DNGs may have three colors per pixel (which is part of the full DNG spec) but Corel products like Aftershot support only one color per pixel.

Vuescan is a major cross-platform scanning application. It would be nice if Aftershot supported DNGs produced by it (or other apps that produce spec-compliant files), since DNG is the only true RAW format that Vuescan outputs. It supposedly produces RAW TIFFs, but I have yet to find any app that treat them as RAW files.

If you would like Aftershot to support Vuescan DNGs, please support a support ticket at https://www.corel.com/en/contact-us/index.html; you must have an account and log in first. You could also submit feedback and request that support for camera RAW at https://www.aftershotpro.com/en/feedback/. Asking for it on this forum probably won't have much effect.
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