You may want to lock this one too.

Post Reply
Uhfgood
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:54 pm
Location: Oregon, USA
Contact:

You may want to lock this one too.

Post by Uhfgood »

After re-reading it, correct, Devil did answer my question. However it still makes me wonder why it didn't set the header bit saying it was CBR. I still didn't figure out why every single file no matter the bit rate stayed the same exact size even with smartrender off. I also don't know why when I tried to render the file out at a bit from of 5120 instead of 6144, it rendered out a file with a bitrate of about 2700 also with smart rendering off.

So what it shows me is that the ulead mpeg 2 codec is unreliable.

Also this shows me that you guys are unfriendly and that you are video-elitists, not even telling me why I should never capture with mpeg 2, but telling me I shouldn't when I asked a completely different question. Granted I know that mpeg 2 is a compression that's very lossy, but these are just home movies, I don't have enough money for another hard drive right now. The point was the fact that msp 7 was acting so oddly, and if you guys didn't know, or couldn't answer why, you could have at least said so (at least one person said they didn't know, and I think them for that).

So, just go ahead lock, or delete this, or even delete my account, because I surely won't be posting here in the future.

Also corel has just lost a customer because of people who probably aren't even employed by them, about software they won't be making in the future anyways.
Keith Weatherby II
http://www.gamesafoot.com
Uhfgood -AT- verizon -DOT- net
Devil
Posts: 3032
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:06 am
Location: Cyprus

Post by Devil »

1. There is no reason why we should lock or delete this thread or unsubscribe you. We welcome criticism, as long as it is constructive. Vindictiveness is not our trademark; there are a one or two members here who annoy me but I prefer not to answer their posts rather than try to pull rank.

2. We are not elitist, or try not to be. If you scan through the forum, you will see we do try tp help as we are able. You must realise that, as fellow-users, the only difference between you and us is possibly years of experience with a complex software. We have no access to Ulead's codes or even any more Ulead help than you. If you pose a question none of us have had experience with, then there is no way we can offer you a valid answer, perhaps just surmise (aka an educated guess)

3. Perhaps you are not aware that your questions were about a problem that is not even Ulead's. The MPEG encoder is not written by them but by a company called MainConcept. Only the interface into it is Ulead's. You may be interested to know that MainConcept provide the same encoder to many of the other prosumer NLE makers, so that moving ship may not help you find the answer to your problem!

4. I'm not saying this paragraph applies necessarily to you but is a general thought. Probably over half the questions posed on this forum, about any Ulead product, do not provide us with enough info to allow us to answer validly and we have to ask for more details, often again and again. We are not clairvoyant and cannot guess what members do not tell us. The administrators, moderators and other expert members often get fed up to the back teeth trying to find out info, often several times, that should have been volunteered from the start. This wastes our time, which could be put to better use, and it is unsurprising that we get ratty, at times. I don't pretend that my fuse is longer than others'; it isn't, because I'm an old man and I don't have that much time left in this world and I don't like wasting it. I therefore try to give what I consider to be the most relevant advice I can to help people out of their problems. Lengthy explanations as to, for example, why capturing in DV is better than capturing in MPEG is so much better merits many long paragraphs, which have already been explained n times in previous posts on this board. We (or I) therefore tend to summarise it with phrases like DV AVI is an editing format, while MPG is a distribution format. If this requires further elaboration, a Search for, say, "distribution format" should explain all.

5. Many here disagree with me but I am a proponent of CBR for reasons explained in the past (searchable!), at least for most projects. I have never done a CBR project with the bit set incorrectly, but I do know that, as I explained, CBR is not strictly constant and there are variations in the bitrate. I've used BitrateViewer and it has always told me correctly the results which correspond approximately to the settings in MSP or whichever of the applications I use at that time. Is it just possible that the bit is set correctly but the viewer you are using sees that there is a variation and interprets it as VBR, without reading the header bit? Again, this is surmise, but a possible explanation to your reported anomaly.

6. I, too, regret that MSP seems like it is at the end of its line. I have 3 NLEs on my video computer, but MSP is the one I use the most, by far.

I hope that this explanation will give you a better understanding.
[b][i][color=red]Devil[/color][/i][/b]

[size=84]P4 Core 2 Duo 2.6 GHz/Elite NVidia NF650iSLIT-A/2 Gb dual channel FSB 1333 MHz/Gainward NVidia 7300/2 x 80 Gb, 1 x 300 Gb, 1 x 200 Gb/DVCAM DRV-1000P drive/ Pan NV-DX1&-DX100/MSP8/WS2/PI11/C3D etc.[/size]
Gorf
Advisor
Posts: 430
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 2:46 pm
Location: Blackburn, UK

Post by Gorf »

Uhfgood wrote:...Also this shows me that you guys are unfriendly and that you are video-elitists, not even telling me why I should never capture with mpeg 2, but telling me I shouldn't when I asked a completely different question...
That's the nature of public forums offering free advice- it happens everywhere, and there's nothing you can do about it. Even pre-empting it by starting your post with "I don't want to turn this into a Mac vs PC argument" (or whatever) does not work.
On another forum, I asked a question about the legalities of having my hotel room cancelled and at least half the responses were demands to explain why I wasn't just driving the sixty miles to sleep at home. On yet another, I asked if anyone knew why the JPEGs from a particular camera took on a slight red cast when rotated in "Windows Picture and Fax Viewer", which got worse with each rotation. Half the responses were asking why I used that software to rotate, the other half berated me for not shooting RAW. None of the responses helped identify the problem.

I can't answer your specific question in the locked thread:
Uhfgood wrote:How come Media Studio Pro 7 (with service pack 3), will not create a constant bit rate mpeg 2 file, at the specified bit rate?
but it is either a bug or done intentionally. If it's done intentionally it might be a bit like speed limiters on cars - if you're not expected to be able to drive above a certain speed, why allow it? It's unlikely, but could also be that providing a more accurate bitrate would have added to the development costs. My personal opinion is that restricting the bitrate makes the resulting video more compatible with DVDR and DVD players, so the likelihood of "Why won't my DVD play?" support questions is reduced - but I've no evidence for that, it's just what I used to do when writing software. Narrow its abilities, and you narrow the users' opportunities to screw it up royally.


Devil wrote:2. We are not elitist, or try not to be. If you scan through the forum, you will see we do try tp help as we are able.
Not all the time. The experts frequently respond to a post by demanding the user's PC profile be filled in, when all the information needed is in the question. I've just replied to one of Steve's posts where he appears to have responded without reading or understanding the question.

Devil wrote:3. Perhaps you are not aware that your questions were about a problem that is not even Ulead's. The MPEG encoder is not written by them but by a company called MainConcept. Only the interface into it is Ulead's...
I can't believe you've said that! Of course it's Ulead's problem - if they supply the encoder, it is their responsibility to make it work. I'm subcontracting a wedding video in August because I'm doing the photography and can't cover both aspects by myself. I've taken the money for the video, so who do you think the B&G will sue if their film is dross?

Devil wrote:...CBR is not strictly constant and there are variations in the bitrate...
Technically, true CBR can't be achieved for MPEG-2 because padding bits were made "illegal" in the specification. It is impossible to create a truly constant bitrate without the ability to fill in the tiny gaps in the stream. It seems odd that they did this with the video, because the audio is definitely CBR,
Anyway - it seems to me that bitrateviewer takes an "opinion" that VBR with a very narrow range of variation was intended to be CBR.
Devil
Posts: 3032
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:06 am
Location: Cyprus

Post by Devil »

Gorf wrote: I can't believe you've said that! Of course it's Ulead's problem - if they supply the encoder, it is their responsibility to make it work.
Perhaps I worded that poorly. If there is a bug in the MC software, Ulead cannot correct it. As a rule, licensing agreements preclude any modification of the software. All U can do is report the fault to MC and let them fix it. So U may have the commercial responsibility but MC has the technical responsibility for the bug-fixing.

The same as, if your subcontractor has made a balls-up of your wedding project, your responsibility is to force them to do the technical fix and provide the goods fit for the intended purpose.
[b][i][color=red]Devil[/color][/i][/b]

[size=84]P4 Core 2 Duo 2.6 GHz/Elite NVidia NF650iSLIT-A/2 Gb dual channel FSB 1333 MHz/Gainward NVidia 7300/2 x 80 Gb, 1 x 300 Gb, 1 x 200 Gb/DVCAM DRV-1000P drive/ Pan NV-DX1&-DX100/MSP8/WS2/PI11/C3D etc.[/size]
Uhfgood
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:54 pm
Location: Oregon, USA
Contact:

Post by Uhfgood »

Devil, thanks for being a bit nicer.

I don't mind people that can't answer my question, that's fine. What Gorf said is the nature of it, he said he asked a question about the legalities of having his hotel room canceled and at least half the responses were demands to explain why he wasn't just driving sixty miles to sleep at home. This is the kind of thing that puts me off of certain forums. I mean it's okay to say "I don't know the legalities" or even to not reply at all because you don't know, it's just when you ask a question and people act as if you're some sort of idiot because you did something a certain way just puts you off.

Yeah I realize that the mpeg encoder is not strictly ulead's, but I just figured someone would know what the deal was.

And I realize that CBR isn't strictly constant like I said earlier, just wondering why the encoder wasn't setting it correctly, and worse yet the bit rate i did get on the files were wildly disparate and I had no idea why.

Like I said the first times I changed bit rates the file size remained exactly the same, i'm guessing from some files that remained on disk (does msp render temporary files, and not preview files). When I recreated the project file it finally did work at the requested bit rate, although gspot still recognized it as VBR, but it was like 5.7gb or some such. Then I just bring the bitrate down a bit, and suddenly it's like half as big (again i'm suspecting some temporary files) even with smart render off. I just didn't get the odd changes. I wasn't expecting exactly the bit rate I put in, but there's a certain point where it's near correct.

But thanks for being a bit more patient with me, as it is I who had the short fuse. It's sort of like when asking a programming question in irc (which is usually not a good idea) and people tell you to look it up. Nevermind the fact i've been programming for over 10 years, and have in fact attempted to look it up. Or the fact that it's a question even a novice could answer if they gave a small bit of time because it wastes more energy to tell me to look it up than just give a quickie answer. I usually don't ask for something in depth because I know if I really want to learn the ins and outs I'll have to really research it, but sometimes you just want a yes or no.

In any case is there a short answer why people think i'm totally out of my mind if I capture in mpeg 2? I realize it's lossy, and that half of the frames are created by the computer based on keys and what not... but, still it looks fine to me, and these are just home movies. The reason I captured in two chunks is so I could fit each half on their own dvd-r's because I haven't any double layer discs handy (that and the fact that since my burner is so early, I've not successfully burned a DL disc - which may be the fault of some discs I do have but have never turned out a successful burn past about 4 gb). I captured at the highest bit rate to get the best quality I could for the archival copies. And i'm making a 4 gig file to fit a viewable version onto one dvd-r.

For information I used pinnacle studio 11 to capture as it was my new capture card / software combo. For some reason MSP wouldn't capture the audio (not sure if it's just a setting I didn't do or what), so I used what came with my capture equipment. And just last night I rendered a file in studio, that was CBR at a bit rate of around 5000 -- now granted it's not exactly that reported, but the file size is perfect, it's about 4.38 gb (that is actual 4.38, rather than just rounded off number, the file size is like 4,596, 849 -- which should fit just nicely. And it wasn't reported as VBR. I just prefer MSP because it's got the the a/b roll editing type structure, and all those overlay tracks and what not. I still may edit with msp in the future, just not with mpeg :-) So for the time being i'll be using my pinnacle stuff.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, sorry I got so agitated.
Keith Weatherby II
http://www.gamesafoot.com
Uhfgood -AT- verizon -DOT- net
troppo
Posts: 290
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:51 am
Location: Broome, Western Australia

Post by troppo »

Gorf wrote: That's the nature of public forums offering free advice- it happens everywhere, and there's nothing you can do about it.
We have never lived in a time where more information was shared to more people, and yet it seems the more we talk, the less we say. Almost like everyone has a RIGHT that their insignificant opinion MUST be heard...

And now you just heard mine. :P
http://www.broomevideo.com
Gorf
Advisor
Posts: 430
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 2:46 pm
Location: Blackburn, UK

Post by Gorf »

troppo wrote:We have never lived in a time where more information was shared to more people, and yet it seems the more we talk, the less we say. Almost like everyone has a RIGHT that their insignificant opinion MUST be heard...

And now you just heard mine. :P
Yeah - but you live so far away that I don't mind listening to your opinion. If it's wrong (in my opinion), and I tell you so, I have no fear of getting lamped.

However, when I told my wife that I thought the picture on the homepage of her website wasn't her best work... :cry:
skier-hughes
Microsoft MVP
Posts: 2659
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:09 am
operating_system: Windows 8
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit
motherboard: gigabyte
processor: Intel core 2 6420 2.13GHz
ram: 4GB
Video Card: NVidia GForce 8500GT
sound_card: onboard
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 36GB 2TB
Location: UK

Post by skier-hughes »

Gorf wrote: However, when I told my wife that I thought the picture on the homepage of her website wasn't her best work... :cry:
Hospital food isn't nice is it..... are you getting better now :lol:

I haven't heard the phrase being lamped for years!!!!!
GeorgeW
Posts: 2595
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:25 am

Post by GeorgeW »

I have not been following the threads, so I don't know about all the locking and such...

I am very curious why the mpeg encoder cannot encode to your settings :?:

Can you try a small 10-minute clip -- encoding them at the different settings. And then posting their encode times, and also their resulting file sizes?

Regards,
George
Uhfgood
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:54 pm
Location: Oregon, USA
Contact:

Post by Uhfgood »

When I created a new project file, the first time it would render near the bit rate I specified, however when using the same project file the other renders wouldn't. And the CBR bit isn't getting set.

I don't actually have a small 10 minute clip handy. Should I A) capture a 10 min clip, or B) render out one via one of the videos I already have? Should I then just use "convert" to convert the clip to different settings, or should I create a project file, to render the video out and make the different settings from there?

One thing to note where I was having the problems, the original files were 720x480 interlaced, with 48k mpeg 2 audio at 224 bit rate. The original mpegs I captured were at the highest I could do with pinnacle at about 10,000 for it's bit rate VBR. I didn't capture with MSP simply beause the audio wasn't going through, and I'm not sure why.

Keith
Keith Weatherby II
http://www.gamesafoot.com
Uhfgood -AT- verizon -DOT- net
GeorgeW
Posts: 2595
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:25 am

Post by GeorgeW »

Option-A would make sure nothing else is introduced into the mix.

Just load it into a new project, and then create a new video -- List the settings you use for each render, the time it takes, and the resulting file sizes.

Also list the steps you take to create the new file (i.e. are you changing the project settings, or are you changing the render settings, etc...).

Regards,
George
Uhfgood
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:54 pm
Location: Oregon, USA
Contact:

Post by Uhfgood »

Also, would you like me to capture the footage at the settings I used for my other videos? (mpeg2, highest bit rate, variable) ?

Or should I choose something like huffyuv -- I can capture 10 minutes with that, I have enough space. However if the reason msp wasn't able to convert my files was because of the input format, then capturing in a different format might not be ideal in finding the cause. Then again, it might be helpful in the fact that if it compresses properly with a different input format, then that could be a clue, and we can rule it out.

Keith
Keith Weatherby II
http://www.gamesafoot.com
Uhfgood -AT- verizon -DOT- net
GeorgeW
Posts: 2595
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:25 am

Post by GeorgeW »

I would suggest re-capturing at the same settings you used earlier.

Regards,
George
Uhfgood
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:54 pm
Location: Oregon, USA
Contact:

Post by Uhfgood »

Okay will do... sometime tonight or tomorrow. Thanks, George W.
Keith Weatherby II
http://www.gamesafoot.com
Uhfgood -AT- verizon -DOT- net
Post Reply