Usb output folder disconnected during rendering

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Davidk
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Usb output folder disconnected during rendering

Post by Davidk »

Rendering a project file with X7 sp1, the specified and recognised target usb drive "disappeared" from explorer view during the operation, and led to a "can't find file" message from X7.

This is most likely to be an OS issue and I have asked MS the question, but I'm listing it here in the hope that, if someone has experienced the same thing they might know what causes it and thus a fix.

What happened
I was running X7 to render a vsp project file, 5min30sec duration. The specified target folder was on an SDHC card attached to the desktop via a usb2 connection. See this image
Render missouri setup.jpg
About 25% into the render operation, the target folder location on the share screen abruptly changed to a C:\drive location, and when the operation was (apparently) completed X7 displayed a "can't find the file" error message. Both the changed target folder and the error message are visible in this image.
Render missouri error.jpg
When I checked to find the problem, the previously visible usb2 drive had disappeared from explorer view - explorer opened fine, no error, and the internal HDD and network drives were displayed but the target usb drive was GONE. Disconnecting it, and then re-connecting it brought that usb drive back to the drive list and a look at the target folder showed that the disconnection had occurred part way into the operation - when X7 was progressively adding processed parts of the output to that file. I re-rendered the vsp using an internal drive location and the final size was 277+mb, and based the part-processed result of 71.25mb, the usb drive disconnection problem - what ever it was - occurred about 25% into the job.
Render missouri file result.jpg
Has anyone experienced this or something like it? And if so, what what was/is the fix to prevent it happening again?

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Re: Usb output folder disconnected during rendering

Post by lata »

Hi David

I work a lot using USB, many times I will create a Smart Package directly to usb, editing directly from USB can be a little slow, I have also rendered using USB as the target, and indeed just tried again, I have not had any problems with USB shutting down.

My only problem was the usb using Fat32 with a 4 gb limit?

Are you able to replicate this problem?
I would suspect the usb connections, port or card?
Regards Trevor
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Re: Usb output folder disconnected during rendering

Post by Davidk »

Hi Trevor,
Thanks for the feedback. I too have used usb drives as targets for rendering before and never seen this or had it happen to me.

As I outlined in my 1st post, I think it is probably a windows (specifically, explorer issue) in managing usb drives but maybe someone else has had it happen to them and may know more about the cause and a fix.

The storage device is a vertbatim 8gb class 10 sdhc card. It's plugged in using a card reader unit (supports 4 physical form factors and about 6 electrical interfaces) that connects to the PC via a usb2 interface, one of 5 similar plugs on the motherboard (ie, not via an intervening hub).

The SDHC card is formatted by Verbatim as FAT32, which is a general manufacturer's practice for SD cards so they can be recognised and used with any number of equipment items, eg cameras, ereaders as well as computers. And I left it that way. The technical description of the FAT32 format describes a 4gb file limit, but the actual partition size it was designed to support tops out at 2terabytes capacity. (source: Seagate disc knowledge base material). So there's more than enough support available for 8gb as long as individual files stay below that 4gb file size limit, and the card is not full.

Was the card full? No. Even now, with the fully rendered, 270Mb mpg file copied to it, the card has 3.08Gb used and 4.33Gb free. The small difference between those two numbers added and 8gb is the storage used for the FAT32 allocation table. So when the event happened, the actual card use would have been (3.08 - 0.27+0.07)gb, or about 2.89Gb. The difference between that used level and 8gb was all free and should have been more than enough to complete the render operation for a 5minute 30sec video within the file size limit.

I have heard of usb drives disconnecting if not used for a long time, and heard of/experienced breaking (not disconnected but returning an error condition when transfer is attempted) which has been associated with (or a side effect of) some LAN activities, according to Microsoft. But these were supposed to have been fixed long ago, and there was no other user-directed activity in progress on the machine at the time (win7 and VS were the only items running, which is what you would expect during a render operation). So why a usb drive would disconnect while in actual use (data being transferred to it) is a mystery.

Davidk
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Re: Usb output folder disconnected during rendering

Post by rwernyei »

David,

Have you tried plugging your card reader into a different USB port? Also, do you have other peripherals connected via USB on your machine? Try disconnecting them, these could be power hungry devices causing the transfer failure. Last, have you thought about formatting your card using NTFS or exFAT?

Hope this helps.
Robert
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Re: Usb output folder disconnected during rendering

Post by Davidk »

Hi Robert,

None of those things yet. It is certainly not VS - evidenced by a subsequent rendering of the same vsp using an internal hard drive target. But VS does use the OS to deliver to any target, and thus the usb focus. Windows has a history with usb, see below. Since the usb connection is via the motherboard rear panel, if it was caused by a power issue, I'm in big trouble. That's why hubs are usually separately powered. But a hub is not involved in this case. As I have said, I've rendered to a card using this reader and usb port before without issues. And I'm reluctant - so far anyway - to reformat to NTFS. I have a number of these cards and they do circulate between a camcorder, 2 cameras, a notebook and the PC, so FAT32 really is the most appropriate format for them.

Searching the MS knowledge base on explorer and usb issues gets a massive response. Finding one that fits is almost impossible, partly because there is no commonality in search terminology. That sort of history is a major reason I think this event was explorer based. A second one is that VS was happily rendering to it until the usb drive just "disappeared" - could not be found when next accessed. But the event may not be that and it's possible someone in the forum has experienced this before. Hopefully. As at time of writing, 81 potential helpers has read this . . . . if I ever do get any sort of positive solution it will go with this thread.

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Re: Usb output folder disconnected during rendering

Post by Davidk »

Update 24 July 2014
Since my last post I've been hassling on the Microsoft Answers community for some answers. And I did get some.
Summarising,
- 1st, I was referred to a fixit link re usb issues, and the opening statement of fixit note was that it would fix items that 1) had errors 2) reported format issues 3) involved an audio device etc none of which applied to this event. Did not follow thru on this.
- 2nd, the uninstall and re-install of all the usb roots hubs and devices was suggested. This is what I have come to call 'shot gun' maintenance - kill the first thing and try again, if not working, repeat. Did not do this either, but the tenor of it bore some investigation.

Further info was that this event occurred just after patch tuesday and some of the updates had pre-requisites. A query to the answers community got a reply that update will (almost always) confirm the existence of a pre-requisite before updating any item. Which eliminated a concern that the event might have been caused by an update that relied on a pre-requisite that was not installed.

Next, following the theme of replace or rather update drivers, I explored the availability of driver updating software. Used the Winzip product and was - despite windows repeated insistence that the usb drivers were all up-to-date - surprised when winzip updater reported 8 drivers in the 'ancient' category and several of them related to this event, one of them directly. I updated all of these.

And then repeated the cycle that led to the original failure - same SDHC memory card, same project file, same version of VS. And it failed again in the same way. With careful noting, at about 68% rendered, and about the same amount of rendered data in the file on the card at the point where the system lost its connection to it.

Being a bit more picky about things at this stage, I did note (again) that in X7 share, choosing a standard video - mpeg2 being the only option - render automatically involved the mpeg optimiser. In previous VS versions, that was NOt the case: you had a choice of selecting it, or not. And since the optimiser in x6 on repeated tests yielded a larger file size than the standard render, I didn't use it. Frankly, it did not give an optimised output. In X7 it seems that choice no longer applies. I screenshotted the optimiser panel at the render start stage in the following image
Last Battleship optimised.jpg
My earlier conclusion that this is looked like a windows issue has been revised a bit, since the relevant usb drivers are now up to date, and a possible side issue related to windows update has been eliminated. Clearly the things that ARE consistent are VS X7 and that usb-connected SDHC card together (both since a render of the vsp to an internal HDD worked fine, see prior post). Before I re-format the card, try an alternative card, or try rendering the vsp using X6,I would appreciate some comment/feedback on the relevance of the X7 mpeg optimiser to this. Is there a way to turn it off or not use it, in the way of X6?

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Re: Usb output folder disconnected during rendering

Post by Davidk »

And the culprit seems to be - X7 and the mpeg optimiser.

While waiting for a response to my query in the last post, I decided to try the X6 approach. Saved the vsp in x6 format, opened X6 pro and then opened the vsp. Opened Ok - there was nothing in the original X7 format project file that wasn't in x6. Selected share, create video file, same as project properties (NOT the optimiser, which is the 3rd item in the option list), and rendered to the same SDHC card and folder. That worked fine.

In X7, choosing mpeg-2 (mpeg-2 because the other options are not applicable - its not to be a DV file, not music and not HD) to render a standard video file, the option of 'same as project properties' is not available - mpeg optimiser is not only the default, its the only option. So, I am really interested in how to turn off the mpeg optimiser when rendering a standard video file in X7 . . . . .

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Re: Usb output folder disconnected during rendering

Post by lata »

Davidk wrote:And the culprit seems to be - X7 and the mpeg optimiser.

In X7, choosing mpeg-2 (mpeg-2 because the other options are not applicable - its not to be a DV file, not music and not HD) to render a standard video file, the option of 'same as project properties' is not available - mpeg optimiser is not only the default, its the only option. So, I am really interested in how to turn off the mpeg optimiser when rendering a standard video file in X7 . . . . .

Davidk
Hi David

I cannot understand why choosing the Optimizer would affect the USB connection.
The option for Same as Project Properties should always be available, there is no reason why that option is greyed out, and ticking the box does not activate those options.

Are you saying that after highlighting Mpeg2 that the “Profile” options are not available to you. Drop down box – down arrow
I see 9 options, the last being Optimizer.


The Mpeg Optimizer shows a graphic of what the encoder has to do, it also uses the properties of the Mpeg2 files used in your project, showing green.
All red areas are other types of clip, not Mpeg2, could be any other type of video or images.

If you do not want to use the Optimizer simply choose cancel.
Then choose a different Profile

You can create your own profile using Settings – Movie Profile Manager, those will be available from the Profile list. Otherwise select the plus symbol (+) to configure and add a new profile.
Regards Trevor
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Re: Usb output folder disconnected during rendering

Post by erdna »

In order to make shure that there are no (dynamic) overcharges on the USB supply voltage causing the disconnection, I would try to use a powered usb hub
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Re: Usb output folder disconnected during rendering

Post by Davidk »

Hi guys,

Thanks for the quick feedback.

For erdna - appreciate your point, and there is a powered hub available. But in this instance, the reader is directly connected to a motherboard plug, and the reason is that some software have cautions about working thru a hub - ie don't. (Not sure why but suspect there's an issue with the usb pin signals thru a hub similar to the way an rs232 cable needed to have the right pin connections. Not supposed to happen with usb - but it seems that it does). This connection works/renders fine when I'm using VS11+, X5 and X6, and fails when I'm using X7 and mpeg optimiser, the hardware and OS being identical in both cases.

Trevor - There is a profile choice, seen in that last posted image. And the one displayed is the 3rd in the drop down list and the 1st one with a 16:9 aspect ratio. I note that mpeg optimiser is also the last in the list. None of the list choices is 'same as project properties' by that description. Leaving the profile choice as it was 1st displayed, click on the start button and the mpeg optimiser panel is immediately displayed, even tho it was not selected. Every time. My current theory is that optimiser is not good with usb drives, largely because 1) I never used it with VS11, X5 and X6 and rendering to a card using this connection was never a problem; and 2) the 1st time I use X7 to render to a card on the same connection, optimiser gets in the way and the render fails. Twice in the same configuration, but not when rendering to a SATA connected HDD. But the only way to prove/test that is to render the vsp using X7 onto that usb+card without using optimiser. So how do I turn it off, or preferably get a set up so it isn't displayed unless selected in the profile?

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Re: Usb output folder disconnected during rendering

Post by Ken Berry »

In Preferences > General have you ticked the box beside "Show message when inserting first video clip"? If so, then when you insert your first clip in the timeline you should get a message box asking if you want the Project Properties to match those of the clip.

Then, when you go to Share, the Same As Project Properties/Same As First Clip are at the top -- see my attached image and the red arrows I have inserted. The arrow on the left shows that you need to tick that box to activate the choice. And the arrow on the right notes that you can choose between Same As Project Properties and Same As First Clip by clicking on the downward pointing arrow on the right of that box.
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VS X7 Same As.jpg
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Re: Usb output folder disconnected during rendering

Post by lata »

Hi David

As far as I know the Optimizer does nothing different when rendering to using any other profile option.
It does however give you graphic details of what you can expect from the render process, it also select properties based on your Mpeg2 files used in a project, in the same way that Same as First Clip would do, assuming the first clip is a Mpeg2 would use identical properties to the optimizer.
You can of course create your own template to your desired settings.

Rendering directly to USB should work ok, I have done that many times.

One thought…..if it’s a usb1 (a slow transfer) than maybe the render process would be faster that the data transfer to usb, if so is the data stored in a cache whilst being transferred or does the process simply freeze.?

But certainly using the Optimiser should not cause this problem, at least I cannot get my brain to believe that?
Regards Trevor
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Re: Usb output folder disconnected during rendering

Post by erdna »

Can't you try with a lower class (4 or 6) card? Can't you try with an external card to usb adapter? I am still convinced there is a powering issue with the combination of the x7 rendering concept in combination with the fast card. Omce you get a short voltage drop below a certain level, your host controller gets a signal to shut off (without an error message).
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Re: Usb output folder disconnected during rendering

Post by Davidk »

Hi guys,

Again, useful info. I've done a range of tests changing 1 thing at a time based on that detail, and this is a report on the results. But broadly, erdna may well be right but for reasons he might not have appreciated, and there is still a question.

First, Ken.
1. the show message item in preferences. I've been using that as a habit for several versions now, and it was checked when I first installed X7. I've not noted the message when opening this project file - but that is probably because the specified properties and the 1st clip were the same.

2. I frankly had not noticed the "same as project properties" check box separately positioned at the top of the screen. In the past its been part of the profile list. So, checked it. And immediately noted that the various coloured option boxes (AVI, MPEG-2, MPEG-4, Custom etc) were no longer available. And it needs to be checked for each render operation - a checked box is not saved during shutdown. Not a big deal but worth noting. And with that box checked, mpeg optimiser no longer appears whenever the start button is selected.

Second, Trevor.
You've probably done it so many times it doesn't register now, but that working folder setting on tab 1 of preferences is the cache. For a lot of things, including rendered files. The way software like this works is that a working file is created, and it "appends" new data to the end of the prior data stream. For example, as every frame is processed, the rendered frame data is added to the file. At some point, the processed data is written to the specified target folder using the specified file name. And at the end, when its all finished, the working file is deleted. Ever noticed the long time lag between 99% and the file was successfully rendered message? Clean up is what that is all about.

Optimiser. Corel clearly thinks there's a need, but I am not sure what it is. Obviously, optional. And it depends on what is meant by optimised. Sometimes, it means that the result is faster (speed gained by removing un-necessary operation steps), but usually, that a smaller file results from the process (that it also works is a basic premise). In the past (with X5) I have done tests using it to compare results between an ordinary (same as preference) operation and an optimised operation. On small files, the optimised version was actually larger (more Mbytes generated). I could never detect any difference between the 2 sorts of output and opted for the process yielding a smaller file (ie, optimiser not used). As part of these tests using larger files it seems that the optimised results are smaller, noticeable but not great - maybe 1% overall. In real terms, about 3 mb in 270mb. Somewhere in the middle there will be a crossover point. But without any published reasons for providing the optimiser, it's real hard to make a case for using it.

Next, test results.
With the "same as project preferences" check box now ticked, I ran the render operation using the same hardware and connections as previously. I got my hopes up when it passed the previous 68% fail point, but later it failed in the same way: at 88% rendered and 168,924bytes generated/written to the target folder/file.

Hmmmm
so next I set up the powered hub as erdna suggested and plugged the card and reader into it. Same render process begun, same as preferences still checked, and this failed too at 68% and roughly the same output file size up to that point. If the supply voltage spikes (sag under load) were a problem, a powered hub should have prevented them. That's its attraction. But this config still failed.

Desperation point. Whats left? SDHC card types generally are numbered to indicate speed capability; higher type number (the little number inside what looks like a copyright C on the card face) the faster it is. All the tests I've done with X6 and X7 used the same card type10: the X6 operations with it worked and the X7 ones didn't. A check of the memory cards I use in the camcorder tossed up several type2 and 1 type6 card. The type 2 ones are nominally the slower ones, and implicitly less sensitive to the sort of supply spikes erdna is referring to, so I decided to repeat the failing X7 test using the slowest SDHC card type I had, albeit one consistently used with a video camcorder over the last 4 years.

Reverted to the original hardware connection: card reader with type 2 card usb cable plugged directly into the motherboard. And ran the "same as" render on the same vsp. And it worked: rendered OK and played Ok too.

This is just bloody perplexing. There is a work around - render to an internal HDD then copy the result to the card, but that sometimes isn't practicable.

I've got a number of class 2 and class 10 SDHC cards and I will run them all thru a render test using both X6 and X7 to see what variability I get. Note that all of this is with the 32bit versions of the program on a 32bit machine.

Davidk
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Re: Usb output folder disconnected during rendering

Post by erdna »

So, power issues seem to be excluded. Can you format (to FAT32) one of yr cards on your PC and test again?
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