Timeline View comparison out of sync

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Weeination
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Timeline View comparison out of sync

Post by Weeination »

I am using VideoStudio X8 to edit in missing material from two other recordings into a primary recording to make a newly created video file. Playing back the video file looks to be in sync, but when I have Video Studio make a direct comparison with the original video clip and the new video file by placing them both in the overlay track in timeline view, it indicates that the two are not completely in sync, like there is a very slight echo.

If it matters, the newly created the video file is 30.10 seconds longer, so when I play them I together I move the shorter original clip ahead by that exact amount of time in the timeline view. Then I make the comparison after the point at which I edited in the new clips so that the exact same frames are playing on both at the exact same time. Under this scenario (moving one file in the timeline view) would that give accurate comparison results.

In the storyboard view, the first clip which was originally over an hour in length has been edited to about 37 minutes to insert a clip from another recording. Then after about 24 seconds, another clip was inserted from a third recording. That clip is about 17 seconds long and then the project goes back to the first recording for another 29 minutes. That is the last clip in the project. All three recordings used were made with different DVD recorders. Therefore the second and third clips have slightly different properties. All of the clips are MPEG-2 Upper Field First. However as you can see, all three DVD recordings have different variable bit rates. The two smaller clips also have a different audio bit rate than the primary recording.

The project properties match the primary first clip (the first and fourth clips).

First & Fourth Clips (from the primary recording - combined they are about 66 minutes)
File Format: NTSC DVD
Attributes: 24 bits, 720 x 480, 4:3
Frame rate: 29.97 frames/sec
Data rate: Variable bit rate (Max. 8500 kpbs)
Audio Type: Dolby Digital
Attributes: 48000 Hz
Layer: None
Bit rate: 192 kps

Second Clip (approx. 24 seconds)
File Format: NTSC DVD
Attributes: 24 bits, 704 x 480, 4:3
Frame rate: 29.97 frames/sec
Data rate: Variable bit rate (Max. 9558 kpbs)
Audio Type: Dolby Digital
Attributes: 48000 Hz
Layer: None
Bit rate: 256 kps

Third Clip (approx. 17 seconds)
File Format: MPEG-2
Attributes: 24 bits, 720 x 480, 4:3
Frame rate: 29.97 frames/sec
Data rate: Variable bit rate (Max. 9400 kpbs)
Audio Type: Dolby Digital
Attributes: 48000 Hz
Layer: None
Bit rate: 256 kps

For the second clip, I opened up then options panel and changed the resampling option from "Keep aspect ratio" to "Fit to project size", but that didn't correct the problem.

Then I right clicked on the first clip and clicked "Copy Attributes". Next I right clicked on clips two and three to "Paste all attributes", but that also didn't help.

If the Timeline View comparison I did is indeed a valid confirmation that the newly created video file is out of sync, then is there anything can be done to correct this?
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Re: Timeline View comparison out of sync

Post by lata »

I am not sure exactly what you have done to cause the beginning of the video to be out of sync with the original

Taking the original clip use the scissors to make a cut, ( keyboard S key to split clip)
Now drag and drop the other two short clips (17 and 24 second clips) to the timeline, at this cut point.
The beginning of the project is unaltered and any rendering to a new file should be in sync.
Of course the overall length will increase as you have added those extra clips.

Note that your project Properties should match the original video files properties.
Rendering using Same as First Clip would probably be the best option
Regards Trevor
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Re: Timeline View comparison out of sync

Post by Weeination »

Hi Lata,

Yesterday I noticed that the original video was missing even more material and so I edited in those part from the two other recordings. However the original video is still unedited until the 25 minute mark.

Now I just noticed something after I read your response. I too was wondering why the beginning of the video was apparently out of sync with the original (before the point any editing was done) in the direct comparison using the two timelines. Now to be clear, when I say the beginning of the video, I really mean anywhere on the first clip before any editing was done. The first several seconds of the video file matches up perfectly with the original video. The apparent out of sync issue happens later on. I was usually doing a comparison shortly before any editing was done, in addition of course to comparing the two after the point at which I did my editing.

Each time I was doing the comparison, the newly created video file was in the first timeline and the original video was in the second timeline. I did that so I could move the shorter original video ahead to do another direct comparison near the end of both videos and they would end at the same time. I didn't place the shorter original video in the first timeline because I was unable to move it ahead. Therefore the longer video file was placed first.

Yes the comparison at the 22 minute mark (before any editing was done to the original video at the 25 minute mark) still shows the video file to be very slightly out of sync with the original when the video file is place in the first timeline and the original in the second. Sometimes it doesn't sound to be out of sync if I go right to the 22 minute mark, but if I start at the very beginning to play the first few seconds, then pause and go ahead to the 22 minute mark, it then sounds very slightly out of sync. That comparison was done with a new video file I created just today using Same As First Clip. However after I read your response, something told me to try and place the original video in the first timeline and the newly created video file in the second timeline.

In this comparison (original in timeline one and the new video file in timeline two) again at that the same 22 minute mark, the video file is perfectly in sync with the original video. That is regardless whether I start with the first few seconds and pause to go ahead to the 22 minute mark, or just go right to the 22 minute mark.

This tells me that the comparison I was doing with the video file in timeline one and the original video in timeline two (to allow me to move it ahead for additional comparisons so that they end at the same time) is not reliable. The video files that are created (whether using Same as Project Setting or Same as First Clip) at least look to be in sync to the naked eye.

As a side note, as it took less time to render the video file using Same as Project Settings so I decided to re-make the video file again with that option. I assume that the faster time it takes to render, the less work it has to do on the original video.
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Re: Timeline View comparison out of sync

Post by lata »

A lot of detail there, I think I understand at least most of it.

Whatever timelines you use to compare the two video clips should not alter / change the sync.

With your video clip on the top track, place an image as the first clip, you could use a colour clip.
Now if you wish to move the video clip its easy by resizing the image, you could add a couple of frames which will nudge the clip along the timeline or indeed reducing the image duration and the video will move left.

Switch to "sound mixer" and the audio wave form will show which can be used to help sync the clips across other tracks.
Regards Trevor
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Re: Timeline View comparison out of sync

Post by Weeination »

I placed the original video clip was on the top track again and the video file on the second track. This time I placed a color clip in front of the original video just as you had suggested. I added the necessary time so that both the original video and the new video file end at exactly the same time on playback. With both playing at the exact same time (matching frame by frame) they were indeed in sync. I tried this again on another part for both videos and again they were in sync. The two parts at which I did the comparison were at points after I did my last editing the the original file. In other words, near the end of the video.

If I proceed to any point in the two videos using only the counter (clicking on either the hour : minute: second : split second counter to go to the exact point at which I did the comparison) then both videos play in sync together.

Here is where I discovered where the problem lies. If I click on the actual timeline to get to a certain point on both videos before using the time counter to get to a more precise location, that must throw off one of the videos very slightly. Every time I do that, then suddenly the two videos are no longer perfectly in sync together. One is just very slightly off from the other. That happens even if I play the two at the exact same time before the point at which any editing was done to the original file. This happens whether I have the original file in the top track and the video file in the lower track or visa versa.
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Re: Timeline View comparison out of sync

Post by Weeination »

Okay forget what I said in the last response. The reason why the original file and the video file sounded perfectly in sync even at the end of both recordings is simply because without clicking on the timeline, the audio for only one clip is playing. However when I click on the timeline to have both play, then everything else I said applies from my second last post. The two files start off perfectly in sync. However at the 22 minute mark, the comparison indicates that the original video and the video file are very slightly out of sync. That point is still a few minutes before I did any editing to the original file. Despite all of that, the video file looks to be in sync. I even had some else look at it. He also thinks the video file is in sync.
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Re: Timeline View comparison out of sync

Post by Weeination »

I just did a test. I took the original video and at around the halfway mark I edited out exactly 30 seconds. Then I created a new video file. Next I played both back in the timeline just before the point at which I edited out the 30 seconds. They were perfectly in sync. Next I moved ahead the video file exactly 30 seconds to play both at the exact same time with matching frames. I compared the two a few minutes before the end of the videos and one minute before the end. In both cases they were not in sync. The result was basically the same as the timeline comparison with my older video file made from the first fully edited project. Surely this program can handle that type of basic editing and not make a video file that is out of sync.

This gets me back to my question. After that test result using a video file sourced from such minor editing, are these simultaneous timeline comparisons indeed accurate in identifying out of sync issues? If the new video files are indeed out of sync, then it's by so little that it's not even noticeable on regular playback viewing.
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Re: Timeline View comparison out of sync

Post by lata »

So adding the extra short video clips has no bearing on the sync issue, nor using different timelines to check sync

I have just rendered a short 720 x 480, 29.97 fps file( 13 minutes duration) unedited
I compared the new clip to the project clips, all in sync.

Using the 13 minute clip I trimmed removed 30 seconds from the middle of the clip
Rendered that to a new video file to compare sync.
These were also in sync as screen shot attached
Note Smart Render was deselected

Rendering with or with Smart Render made one frame difference in the audio sync, mind you that was not noticeable when playing the clip
I had to use Sound Mixer and zoom into timelines to see the wave form
Smart Proxy files were not used.

Please try disabling Smart Proxy files if used
Deselect Smart Render
Then try rendering again using Same as Project Settings
click image for larger view
click image for larger view
Regards Trevor
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Re: Timeline View comparison out of sync

Post by Weeination »

I checked and Smart Proxy was not being used to begin with. Then I deselected Smart Render. I first rendered a video file from my primary project with the much more extensive editing. Not that it matters I suppose, but as I mentioned that project involved more editing than I initially started with. Instead of four clips, there are now ten among those same three source videos. The audio filter Amplify was also applied to the clips that are not from the primary recording.

Anyhow, with Smart Render unchecked, the frame by frame comparison at the last minute still shows the original video and the video file as being out of sync. They were also shown as being out of sync with one another even before the point at which any editing was done to the original video.

Next, another video file was made (still with Smart Render deselected) from the test project (only 30 seconds removed near the middle of the original video). The frame by frame comparison at the last minute still shows the original video and the video file to be out of sync. Not only that, but both are now out of sync at the point even before I removed those 30 seconds on the test project. As you may recall, with Smart Render selected before making that video file from the test project, at least the original video and the video file were in sync prior to the point at which the 30 seconds were removed.
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Re: Timeline View comparison out of sync

Post by tletter »

Weeination wrote:The frame by frame comparison at the last minute still shows the original video and the video file to be out of sync.
Your source clips have a "Variable bit rate". I'd suggest that you try converting these clips to a constant bit rate using something like Handbrake and then see if the problem persists.

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Re: Timeline View comparison out of sync

Post by Weeination »

Hi tletter,

I have heard of Handbrake before but never used it. After getting some online instruction, I made a few conversion attempts to a constant bit rate using different settings. Then I made the same basic edit to each of the different converted videos, removing 30 seconds at the same part I did with my other test projects. Unfortunately I didn't get any better results when comparing the converted constant bit rate videos to the video files rendered from each test project attempt. I tried rendering video files both with and without Smart Render for the comparisons. On some attempts the out of sync issue actually got much worse.
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Re: Timeline View comparison out of sync

Post by tletter »

Weeination wrote:Then I made the same basic edit to each of the different converted videos, removing 30 seconds at the same part I did with my other test projects.
Suggest that you post a clip on a filesharing site that will demonstrate the issue when rendered in VS.

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Re: Timeline View comparison out of sync

Post by lata »

Variable data rates should not affect the audio sync, if it were variable frame rates then maybe there will be an issue
Converting to another format may help and probably worth a try, but personally with your files should not be necessary
Your files appear to be bog standard DVD Mpeg2 and as such should cause no problems.

Your video properties show a frame rate of 29.97fps, I would have expected that to be followed by Upper Field unless they are progressive which can be used for DVD Mpeg2 especially for Slide Shows. ( Post updated --- apologies your comment on the original post does indeed mention Upper Field)

As you know I have run several tests and do not experience any change in audio sync although using X9 the nearest version to your X8
My only other option is to install X8 to see if its program specific, but I doubt that

My only other suggestion is to deselect the Acceleration options from F6 Preferences – Performance tab

So No Smart Render
No Smart Proxy
and No Acceleration options
Then render to the “Same as First Clip” option


Like Tletter, if you can provide samples we can try your actual files.
A DVD Mpeg2 will be approx. 1 Gb for 15 minutes
Regards Trevor
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Re: Timeline View comparison out of sync

Post by Weeination »

To follow your suggestion I deselected the Acceleration options. The only one that was actually selected was Editing Process - Enable Hardware Decoder acceleration. No Smart Proxy was already deselected and remains that way. No Smart Render and Same as First Clip was in place before creating the video files.

The result is still the same for both for the video file created from the primary project and the test project with only 30 seconds removed from the middle. It makes no sense that the simultaneous timeline comparison has both of those video files not in sync with the original video just a few minutes before the point at which any editing was done.

By the way, from the recommended procedure, I just noticed I forgot to change the quality slider to 100 in Project Properties / Edit / Compression. I just changed it over to 100 a moment ago, after I already did all my editing. Does that mean that change will be recognized post editing, or do I need to always set it to 100 before any editing is done to have that result. I am just wondering if I need to note all of the editing I have done and use that as a guide, if I need to start over from scratch to insure that the quality slider setting is recognized as being 100?

I am at the point where I may just go ahead to the share phase as the video file looks in sync anyhow. I would be curious however to know if this situation is indeed program specific to X8.
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Re: Timeline View comparison out of sync

Post by lata »

To enable us to move forward with this problem I think we need your video files to test.
That would mean you uploading to a sharing site.
If that is to happen then you should create a Smart Package of the project, that copies all files used in the project. Then upload the Smart Package
I am quite willing to install VS X8 although I dont think It will be any different to using VS X9.

Another option would be for you to provide the project file (vsp), create a new project using your files, cut the first video to add the two additional clips.
With no other editing, save the project.
Zip the vsp to attach to your post, we can try by replicating your files, fortunately I do have some ntsc dvd mpeg2 files that could be used to replicate your files. My own feeling is that my tests will be insync, I have run out of ideas as to why you are having these issues.

We could use Team Viewer for desktop assistance so I can view your pc, even so I do not think you are doing anything to cause this so not sure that me looking will help, but willing to have a go.

One thing we have not suggested is re-installing the X8 program, then install updates.
If it is your program then re-installing could help.


Quality slider, I believe this to affect the render / share process
Regards Trevor
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