NEW! PaintShop Pro 2019

Color Workspace & Printer Issues

Corel Paint Shop Pro

Moderator: Kathy_9

Color Workspace & Printer Issues

Postby CHoffman » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:27 am

First, I want to say I've used Paintshop Pro for many years, since God's dog was just a pup. I love the thing, save for this one rather large and growing issue:

Paintshop Pro has always had some color management issues, going back years ago when I had a Canon i9900. I now have brand new Paintshop Pro 2018 and a new Canon PRO-100. The same issues are present, plus some new discoveries. Wide gamut 16-bit images are becoming a norm for higher quality work. If one loads the right icc files, 2018 will happily use them, including AdobeRGB(1998) and ProPhoto. That part seems to work fine. Unfortunately, regardless of how color management is set up, or even turned off and left to the printer driver, setting those color workspaces, which should not affect printing, causes dark and muted prints. The problem isn't as bad with the Adobe icc, but it's still there. Nobody likes brown strawberries.

The other, older, problem concerns the use of 3rd party icc files for printer paper. Regardless of whether color management is done via 2018 or the printer driver, the color quality is poor. The exact same images and icc files, used with a different printing program (Qimage), work fine. BTW, the only way I can find to use those is with the proofing selection. The little note says "see colors on your monitor and/or printer as they would appear on another device." I interpret that to mean you can see colors on your printer as they would appear on your printer, if you used the icc file you wanted to use in the first place, since non-Canon icc files can't be seen in the drop-box above. It does appear to work that way, though the docs could explain it a bit better. It's not only soft proofing, it's also the actual way to print.

In general, 2018 does pretty good with 8-bit images in sRGB. Not perfect, but well enough to make most people happy. For anything else, wider gamut non-sRGB images, nothing I've done gives even remotely acceptable print quality. Because the working color space (which matches the images) affects the output so badly, I have to assume there's a fundamental problem somewhere.

To duplicate this, there's a very good test image here- http://www.outbackphoto.com/printingins ... essay.html
Suitable AdobeRGB(1998) and ProPhoto RGB working spaces can be downloaded from various places. Note that ROMM RGB is said to be the same as ProPhoto RGB, but I've found that not to be the case. You need ProPhoto RGB. I believe it can be had here- https://sites.google.com/site/chromasoft/icmprofiles

Thanks for any illumination that can be provided, or even a fix!
CHoffman
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:55 am
operating_system: Windows 10
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit
motherboard: Asus Z270-A
processor: i7700K 4.2 GHz
ram: 16.0 GB
Video Card: Nvidia K1200
sound_card: integrated or Nvidia or Emu
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 2T+SSD
Monitor/Display Make & Model: Viewsonic VP2468
Corel programs: Paintshop Pro 2018 & bundle

Re: Color Workspace & Printer Issues

Postby GMack » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:01 pm

Yep. One reason I no longer buy the PSP newer versions is due to the poor color management of PSP. It really needs to be addressed!

I can open Photoshop CS6 or Lightroom and the screen color remains as calibrated with either device I use: A x-rite ColorMunki Photo or their i1 PhotoPro 2 unit. I open PSP and the screen immediately goes blue (Maybe some D65 color setting it prefers?) and the hardware calibrated color management is lost until I reboot the computer and stay away from opening PSP. I also have a $3K Eizo 4K display and it will go nuts if I open PSP in its Color Navigator software.

Fix it and maybe I'll update to 2018 or 2019 whenever it happens. No sense buying it if it doesn't work with hardware calibrated monitors and goes into its own idea of color management - or mismanagement.
GMack
 
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:22 pm
operating_system: Windows 10
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit
motherboard: MSI MS-1782 REV 1.0
processor: 2.60 gigahertz Intel Core i7-6700HQ
ram: 24 GB
Video Card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980M
sound_card: Realtek High Definition Audio
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 1 TB
Monitor/Display Make & Model: Generic PnP Monitor, Eizo CG248 24.0"
Corel programs: Paintshop Pro X8, Aftershot 2

Re: Color Workspace & Printer Issues

Postby CHoffman » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:32 pm

FWIW, I use a factory monitor profile loaded under Windows color management, and AFAIK it works fine every time. I'd assume a hardware calibration produces the same type of file that gets loaded in the same way, but I've never used such. Windows CM is a bit weird too. You have to go to the advanced system property and repeat what you just did, in near identical dialogs, for the thing to take effect and work right. Also, installing an icc file by right clicking will not reinstall over an old one. You have to manually delete the old one (I think), but with all the protections built into Windows 10, I don't know how to do that. I can't access the directory.

As for the PSP color management, I'd love to know what affects what. IOW, when I change the printer icc file under basic CM, does that have any effect when I use the proofing option below? If I turn off PSP color management and let the printer driver do it, the results are terrible. Sending the same image through Qimage, using the same Red River icc file works fine, better than fine- the prints are spectacular. I'd assume Qimage also uses the same printer driver, but I don't know for sure. I think the PSP CM code is buggy, but who's to say, since there's no detailed guide on how to use it in a real world high gamut situation using 3rd party icc files. Maybe the Canon printer driver is part of the problem, but I don't have other printers to see how they work. I'd also think that if the PSP CM code is buggy, Corel would have figured it out by now and fixed it. The issue has certainly come up before. It's worked this way since I can remember, many years now. An Adobe CM expert in another forum thinks I'm a complete idiot and all problems are the result of bad setup on my part. It's entirely possible, but I'd love to hear from anybody that's using a Canon PRO-100 and 3rd party icc files (Red River) and is getting high quality results with other than 8-bit sRBG images.
CHoffman
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:55 am
operating_system: Windows 10
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit
motherboard: Asus Z270-A
processor: i7700K 4.2 GHz
ram: 16.0 GB
Video Card: Nvidia K1200
sound_card: integrated or Nvidia or Emu
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 2T+SSD
Monitor/Display Make & Model: Viewsonic VP2468
Corel programs: Paintshop Pro 2018 & bundle

Re: Color Workspace & Printer Issues

Postby brucet » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:10 pm

Color management in PSP has been broken for ever. I'm sure either Corel doesn't know how to fix it they simply don't care. I've now moved on to a workflow that doesn't include PSP for anything that is color critical. I use QImage softproofing for anything critical and also for printing.

Turn Color Management OFF in preferences and at least it won't keep changing your color profiles.

regards
brucet
 
Posts: 895
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:37 am
Location: Australia
operating_system: Windows 8.1
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit
ram: 8GB

Re: Color Workspace & Printer Issues

Postby CHoffman » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:58 pm

The nagging feeling that I'm doing something wrong drives me nuts. It's inconceivable that Corel hasn't fixed this over the years. It would be great if some of you would download the test image and profiles I linked and see if you get the same brown strawberries and muted appearance I do. I'd love to know if the problem is the same for every printer, or is especially bad with Canon. Bluntly, the takeaway here is that PSP can't be used for printing.

Something else I'd like confirmation on is the color working space. If you set that to sRGB, AdobeRGB(1998) or ProPhoto RGB (or whatever else you like), I assume it still works correctly even if color management is disabled? IOW, color management only deals with printing and proofing, not display and the embedding of profiles in the image?
CHoffman
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:55 am
operating_system: Windows 10
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit
motherboard: Asus Z270-A
processor: i7700K 4.2 GHz
ram: 16.0 GB
Video Card: Nvidia K1200
sound_card: integrated or Nvidia or Emu
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 2T+SSD
Monitor/Display Make & Model: Viewsonic VP2468
Corel programs: Paintshop Pro 2018 & bundle

Re: Color Workspace & Printer Issues

Postby Charlie77 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:55 pm

Hi CHoffman,

I have downloaded your test image and printed it with PSPX9. The strawberries look fine. I have an Epson artisan1430 that I have switched over to pigment ink. I used Costco 8.5 x 11 and 4 x 6 photo paper. I create my own profiles using the Profile Prism software.

The color management in Paintshop Pro has failed to work with any of my Epson printers for a very long time. My fix is to disable color management in Paintshop Pro and set my ICC file in the Epson printer driver.

The pigment ink that I am now using has a much different color cast than the original dye ink for my printer. With my current ICC profile I get excellent skin tones, good reds, blues, and greens. The only problem I currently have is that true yellow has a slight green cast. When I manually correct the yellow the skin tones become unacceptable.

I use as sRGB color space in Paintshop Pro because it matches the color space that I use in my Nikon D7100. I use a Spider 2 Express to calibrate my display screen.

Below I have included the settings I use in my artisan 1430 printer driver and a scanned copy of your test print.

I hope this helps, Charlie
Attachments
Scanned Test Print.jpg
Artisan 1430 Driver Settings Page 2.jpg
Artisan 1430 Driver Settings Page 1.jpg
Charlie77
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:22 pm
operating_system: Windows 7 Home Premium
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit
motherboard: ASUSTeK CM6870 - LGA1155
processor: Intel Core i7 3770 - 3.40GHz
ram: 16GB
Video Card: NVIDIA GeForce GT 620 DDR3 2048MB 64bit
sound_card: On motherboard Realtek High Definition Audio
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 5TB
Monitor/Display Make & Model: Dell ST2310 1920x1080
Corel programs: ASP 3, PSP X9(My Preference), PSP 2018

Re: Color Workspace & Printer Issues

Postby CHoffman » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:35 am

Charlie77, thanks, it's great to get more datapoints on what works. In general, I can get PSP to do a decent job using sRBG space. The real test is to set the working space to ProPhoto RGB and load the ProPhoto version of the test file without conversion, and then print it. It looks like you've done a pretty good job with the three green patches (squares 4, 5 and 6), a bit better than mine I think, but they should actually separate quite a bit more in tone if the wide gamut can be used. I like your printer driver as it seems to have more and better labeled options than the Canon.
CHoffman
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:55 am
operating_system: Windows 10
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit
motherboard: Asus Z270-A
processor: i7700K 4.2 GHz
ram: 16.0 GB
Video Card: Nvidia K1200
sound_card: integrated or Nvidia or Emu
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 2T+SSD
Monitor/Display Make & Model: Viewsonic VP2468
Corel programs: Paintshop Pro 2018 & bundle

Re: Color Workspace & Printer Issues

Postby brucet » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:48 am

A word of caution. A number of users have reported that after setting up their color requirements in PSP somehow Corel/PSP was changing them afterwards. I no longer use PSP for anything color critical. Others may remember the details. But we found that you could setup PSP just the way you wanted it. Work on images. Close PSP. And then on opening PSP for the second time find that color settings had reverted to Corel settings.

As I said. I have forgotten the exact details of this issue. But be aware that Corel/PSP has/had a habit of reverting to previous settings.

regards
brucet
 
Posts: 895
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:37 am
Location: Australia
operating_system: Windows 8.1
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit
ram: 8GB

Re: Color Workspace & Printer Issues

Postby CHoffman » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:35 pm

If one wants to use RAW files from the camera, it only makes sense to use a larger color space for printing. That goes hand in hand with 3rd party icc files for papers. PSP seems to handle things correctly, save for printing. There seems to be some kind of conversion error when the data is sent to the printer driver. This rather old thread describes it well, if you read near the end, and I think the problem persists to this day- https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3340883

I'm not convinced that the error doesn't also occur in sRGB space, but it's subtle enough that most wouldn't notice it unless they compared a standard test image printed with another program that handles color management correctly.

Hopefully we can get some visibility on this thing (Nev!) because I'm guessing it's something that could easily be fixed, if only somebody at a code level could look at it. Fix this ancient problem and there would be fewer reasons for even very serious photographers to use the competition.
CHoffman
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:55 am
operating_system: Windows 10
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit
motherboard: Asus Z270-A
processor: i7700K 4.2 GHz
ram: 16.0 GB
Video Card: Nvidia K1200
sound_card: integrated or Nvidia or Emu
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 2T+SSD
Monitor/Display Make & Model: Viewsonic VP2468
Corel programs: Paintshop Pro 2018 & bundle

Re: Color Workspace & Printer Issues

Postby CHoffman » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:55 pm

Now here's something I didn't realize. 3rd party icc files will show up in the non-proof drop-down menus IF they're set up in Windows color management correctly. What you have to do in Windows color management is highlight the device in question, say the printer, and check the use my settings box. Then, select add and assign whatever 3rd party icc files you already have installed, to that particular printer. You may have to use the advanced tab and do it at a system level too (not sure), but then the icc files will show up as available in PSP for the printer you're using. Not sure if you also have to select manual too. Just having the icc files installed on the machine isn't enough- you have to assign them. IMO, this is huge because it's half the battle in getting PSP color management to work as expected. If they can identify whatever translation problem seems to be happening, and fix it, we'd have usable color management.
CHoffman
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:55 am
operating_system: Windows 10
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit
motherboard: Asus Z270-A
processor: i7700K 4.2 GHz
ram: 16.0 GB
Video Card: Nvidia K1200
sound_card: integrated or Nvidia or Emu
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 2T+SSD
Monitor/Display Make & Model: Viewsonic VP2468
Corel programs: Paintshop Pro 2018 & bundle

Re: Color Workspace & Printer Issues

Postby hartpaul » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:17 pm

I downloaded the tif file from that first page link at http://www.outbackphoto.com/printingins ... essay.html
I also Right clicked and saved as jpg the largest color test image on that page.
Opened both in Irfanview and the tif showed brown strawberries while the jpg looked like the screen.
I then loaded both into PSP 2018 - both appeared the same with red strawberries.
I printed both using PSP 2018 on a Canon IP4700 printed and both had red strawberries and barring the contrast difference between printed on paper v the screen image they appeared identical with no color casts.
Last edited by hartpaul on Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Systems XP, Win7, Win 8.1,Win 10 Version 1607 Build 14393.2007 & version 1803 Build 17134.285
hartpaul
Advisor
 
Posts: 2457
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:38 pm
Location: Australia
operating_system: Windows 10
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit
motherboard: AsusTex P7P55D
processor: IntelCore I 5 2.67 Ghz
ram: 8 Gb
Video Card: Nvidia GeForce GTX 460
sound_card: Nvidia High Definition Audio
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 1000 Gb
Monitor/Display Make & Model: AOC
Corel programs: PSP8,X2 to X9,2018,2019

Re: Color Workspace & Printer Issues

Postby CHoffman » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:03 pm

Really important- did you set the PSP 2018 color space to Prophoto (meaning you would have downloaded and installed the appropriate icc file) such that the test image was not translated to sRGB? I can get reasonable results printing sRGB files, but not a wide gamut Prophoto (or Adobe 1998) file. In the setup, keep the warning checked so you know if an image gets translated to the current color space.
CHoffman
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:55 am
operating_system: Windows 10
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit
motherboard: Asus Z270-A
processor: i7700K 4.2 GHz
ram: 16.0 GB
Video Card: Nvidia K1200
sound_card: integrated or Nvidia or Emu
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 2T+SSD
Monitor/Display Make & Model: Viewsonic VP2468
Corel programs: Paintshop Pro 2018 & bundle

Re: Color Workspace & Printer Issues

Postby hartpaul » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:11 pm

No have not bothered with any of those other profiles. Monitor is sRGB , working space is sRGB - that way I can see on the monitor matching colors in the image that match what I see on the net. My printer also prints out what matches the monitor and program images so I do not look for any more.
Systems XP, Win7, Win 8.1,Win 10 Version 1607 Build 14393.2007 & version 1803 Build 17134.285
hartpaul
Advisor
 
Posts: 2457
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:38 pm
Location: Australia
operating_system: Windows 10
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit
motherboard: AsusTex P7P55D
processor: IntelCore I 5 2.67 Ghz
ram: 8 Gb
Video Card: Nvidia GeForce GTX 460
sound_card: Nvidia High Definition Audio
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 1000 Gb
Monitor/Display Make & Model: AOC
Corel programs: PSP8,X2 to X9,2018,2019

Re: Color Workspace & Printer Issues

Postby CHoffman » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:07 pm

Exactly what can be printed vs. displayed is open to debate, at least for those of us without the capability to measure. If you pass images to others or use them on the web, sticking with sRGB is the way to go. PSP seems to do fine with that, as you demonstrate. OTOH, our cameras can usually deal with a larger color space, so it's common and often desirable to take advantage of it. That means shooting RAW and bringing the image into PSP as Prophoto or Adobe (1998) and 16 bits. If everything is working right, color management-wise, you should still get a very good match between what you see on the screen (probably sRGB space), and what you get on the printer, from a wide gamut image. It's that last bit that doesn't seem quite right yet.
CHoffman
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:55 am
operating_system: Windows 10
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit
motherboard: Asus Z270-A
processor: i7700K 4.2 GHz
ram: 16.0 GB
Video Card: Nvidia K1200
sound_card: integrated or Nvidia or Emu
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 2T+SSD
Monitor/Display Make & Model: Viewsonic VP2468
Corel programs: Paintshop Pro 2018 & bundle

Re: Color Workspace & Printer Issues

Postby bruce1951 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:00 pm

Color management and printing is a real mine field of issues just waiting to go off.

I do large numbers of prints for a certain museum. A3+. I have repeat orders and the initial work has to be color correct. I gave up on PSP simply because I couldn't get a stable and consistent result. You could spend time setting up every thing in PSP, think you have it right, and then it changes. If you ONLY used PSP then maybe you could get away with PSP's management. But I use other software in the process so color management for the system is key. Not just PSP. It is obvious that Color Management is beyond those at Corel. Either they don't have the ability to correct it or are simply ignoring the issue as being unimportant.

However is goes much further than the Color Management in PSP. Color reproduction has so many elements. Our systems have to match. Video cards etc. Screen/monitors have to match. Viewing conditions have to match. Software has to be the same. And with the same settings. Workflows have to be the same. Then we have printers, profiles, paper and ink. And all this just so we compare the results to solve a perceive problem.

I had a problem when I had to find another paper supply when Ilford was nolonger available. A simple change of paper can make a huge difference.

My point being - regardless of how PSP/Corel treats color management I think it's a futile task to try and solve these types of issues while there are so many variables.

bruce
bruce1951
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:39 am
Location: Australia
operating_system: Windows 8.1
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit
ram: 8gb

Next

Return to Paint Shop Pro

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bruce1951 and 15 guests