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PSP does not see image orientation

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Re: PSP does not see image orientation

Postby Richard » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:53 am

JoeB wrote:IMHO the camera should provide proper orientation information, and your camera - at least with the settings you had chosen or accepted for it - doesn't seem to have done that.


Unless you have dug into the file format of that photo, and have a lot of knowledge about the EXIF format in jpeg files, that is, at best, guesswork on your part. The fact is, every software package anyone here has come up with, other than later versions of PSP, gets it right. So maybe the EOS 20D has a bug in the file format (not impossible, although Canon is not exactly a minor player in the camera market), and every other software package anyone on these forums has presented has specifically done something to accommodate that bug (because with 9-10 packages the chances that they all randomly did something to accommodate it is slim to none). Or maybe PSP is wrong.
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Re: PSP does not see image orientation

Postby Richard » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:00 am

hartpaul wrote:Nothing of the sort . As you said Windows Explorer Photoshop etc see the tag and rotate the image from a portrait lying sideways to a vertical position.
You seem to be the only one that does not have PSP X9 and 2018 doing that rotation .


No. Jean-Luc specifically said he sees the same problem with the image I posted a link to.

hartpaul wrote:My last pic showed that my PSP 2018 was performing the rotation just the same as Photoshop, Windows explorer , Irfanview (my second combined image) .

I do not see the relevance of your image. I am not claiming that PSP 2018 gets it wrong for every photo I have. Only the ones from the EOS 20D.

hartpaul wrote:Edit : Can you post one of your images that always shows as not rotating so that we can test it out on our systems. As Joe has mentioned there may have been a problem with your 20D in adding the rotation information.

I already did.
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Re: PSP does not see image orientation

Postby JoeB » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:43 am

Richard wrote:
hartpaul wrote:Can you post one of your images that always shows as not rotating so that we can test it out on our systems. As Joe has mentioned there may have been a problem with your 20D in adding the rotation information.


I already did.


And when I open it in Manage mode in PSP x7 through 2018 there is no embedded Orientation information, whether I check it in Manage mode or in the workspace. So PSP is looking for that information and is not finding it, and for whatever reason defaults to presenting it in Landscape mode. Whatever the reason other programs show it in Portrait mode, it doesn't change the fact that the Image Information shows that there is no embedded Orientation information from your camera. And that's the issue, unless you think that all programs have to use the same algorithms - rather than embedded Exif data - to determine what to do with an image.

Are you actually trying to say that the image orientation IS embedded in the image? If so, we can't read it. If not, then regardless of whether other programs still decide to show it with short side on top and bottom while our PSP versions decide to show it with long side top and bottom isn't the issue. The lack of embedded information in the image from the camera is the issue, and that's the fault of the camera.

The subject title you chose for this thread reads: "PSP does not see image orientation". Again, if that image orientation is actually in the image (and you could post a screenshot of some Image Information program showing that the information is actually present) then your subject title is correct. But if that orientation is not present in the image, then there is no information for PSP to see. Right?
Last edited by JoeB on Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PSP does not see image orientation

Postby Richard » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:52 am

OK. You have established that in PSP X7 the problem existed. That in no way establishes that the information is not there. PSP X4 finds it. I just transferred the photo to my phone. Google photos gets it right. Quickpick gets it right. Aviary gets it right. Camera ZOOM FX gets it right.

Show me one other piece of software that gets it wrong, other than versions of PSP somewhere past X4. Obviously, something changed in X5, X6, or X7. We have at least narrowed it down that far.

What algorithm do you propose could exist that can orient a photo absent any orientation information? I would say none. And the chances that, at the current count, 13-14 applications all have such clever algorithms, but PSP does not? Zero.
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Re: PSP does not see image orientation

Postby JoeB » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:57 am

Richard wrote:OK. You have established that in PSP X7 the problem existed. That in no way establishes that the information is not there.


You must have missed the recent edit I did to my last post. Can you post a screenshot of any Image Information program (or any graphic program with an Image Information tool) that shows that the Orientation information is actually present (i.e. embedded) in the image? Because we can't see it using our Image Information tools. And if it's not there then there is no information for PSP to see, which was the subject title of your original post. And if it's not in any of the image embedded data, exactly where did you expect PSP to extract that information from?

Richard wrote:What algorithm do you propose could exist that can orient a photo absent any orientation information? I would say none.


If no algorithm, all I have asked is that you then show - somehow - that the orientation information is, in fact, embedded in the image. As stated, a screenshot from some software showing that this info is actually embedded in the image would do just fine. Then I could accept that, for whatever reason, PSP's Image Information tool and the program itself isn't reading that embedded info. And if the info is not there, then what's PSP supposed to be reading, eh?
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Re: PSP does not see image orientation

Postby Richard » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:21 am

JoeB wrote:Can you post a screenshot of any Image Information program (or any graphic program with an Image Information tool) that shows that the Orientation information is actually present (i.e. embedded) in the image?

I already did. GIMP explicitly calls it out.

JoeB wrote:Because we can't see it using our Image Information tools.

Which image information tools? You can't use PSP for this, because it's the suspect. If it's wrong, how can you prove it's wrong by using it to read the information?

JoeB wrote:all I have asked is that you then show - somehow - that the orientation information is, in fact, embedded in the image. As stated, a screenshot from some software showing that this info is actually embedded in the image would do just fine. Then I could accept that, for whatever reason, PSP's Image Information tool isn't reading that embedded info.

A call out from GIMP and 13-14 applications (i.e. every application other than later versions of PSP) getting the rotation right is not enough? What level of proof do you require?
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Re: PSP does not see image orientation

Postby Richard » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:38 am

Here you go. PSP X4:
PSP X4.PNG
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Re: PSP does not see image orientation

Postby hartpaul » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:26 pm

OK , have done some more tests and seems to be a problem from X5 onwards.
The Canon 20D was first put out in 2004.
The 5D Mk1 in 2005.
The 5D Mk3 in 2012
Software:
Fuji Finepix viewer 4.1.10 in 2000 - 2003 does not recognize orientation tags
Zoombrowser 6.2.1.1.31 in 2008 shows visually with a blue circular arrow when there is any orientation tag apart from landscape,
PSP X4 in 2011
PSP 2018 in 2017

The orientation tag is found at Hex 36 in the Exif file and the values can be from 1 to 8. This shows what those numbers do:

JPEG Rotation and EXIF Orientation
https://www.impulseadventure.com/photo/exif-orientation.html

There were a couple of pages that showed contempt for orientation tags.:

EXIF Orientation Handling Is a Ghetto
https://www.daveperrett.com/articles/2012/07/28/exif-orientation-handling-is-a-ghetto/

The most evil feature ever conceived: the Exif Orientation Tag
https://keyj.emphy.de/exif-orientation-rant/

Now for PSP
X2 ignores any orientation info
X3 and X4 read the info and apply it in all cases including Richard's Thistle
X5-2018 all apply successfully the 5D orientation but have a problem with the 20D orientation tag, even though the value 06 might be there. With 5D images also having a 06 Orientation tag the orientation change is applied. So there must be something else in the 20D that interferes with the reading of this tag by later versions of PSP.
I would be interested in anybody else that has a 20 D testing the Auto Rotate and seeing if they also have the same problem.
I suspect it will not be worthwhile Corel devoting time and money to find and correct for a problem that may be in all 14 year old 20D cameras.
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Re: PSP does not see image orientation

Postby hartpaul » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:43 pm

Also some further test images to demonstrate the problem. I took 4 images with auto rotate enabled, with the camera in 4 different orientations (you ever tried to hold a camera upside down and compose and find the shutter button), and also 4 images without the autorotate.
The Fujipix images show the images as I took them . It ignores any rotation information.
Z01Finepix.jpg


This second image shows the images in Zoombrowser and also shows which images have the orientation tag at Hex 36 different from 01.
Z02Zoombrowser.jpg


This third image shows the images in PSP 2018 and how all but the 20D are rotated correctly. Below each image is the rotation applied . The 20 D orientation should read Right /top and the value at Hex 36 is 06.

Z03PSP2018.jpg


Finally PSP X4 recognises and uses the rotation information correctly.
Z04PSPX4.jpg


So yes there appears to be a bug in later versions of PSP, but I cannot see Corel fixing it unless there are some other newer cameras that show up with the same problem.

Thank you Richard for bringing up this problem as it inspired me to go look up information on the EXIF data and locate the Orientation tag. As an experiment I took the same landscape image copied it 8 times with different names and then changed the Orientation tag to each of the 8 possible values. May post the results of this at a later date.
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Re: PSP does not see image orientation

Postby Richard » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:57 pm

Great analysis :shock: :D . 10 out of 10 for that!

Interesting links too. And one of them links to another page that's also interesting: https://www.impulseadventure.com/photo/lossless-rotation.html

Unfortunately, I don't think PSP supports lossless rotation or cropping (if it does, I can't figure out how to do it) :(

So it's a bug, but as you say, whether Corel will fix it is debatable. If several other people had jumped into the conversation saying "also this camera, and this camera, and this camera, ...", they would have little choice. But so far it seems to be an oddity limited to photos from one very old camera. On the other hand, every other application gets it right, which implies it's not something that would be hard to fix. We will have to see what they say.

One last thought, note the dimensions information:

Dimensions.JPG
Dimensions.JPG (17.34 KiB) Viewed 706 times

Hmmm. I don't think that's right :lol: Maybe this has something to do with it (pure speculation on my part)?

Thanks for everyone's help on this. This discussion really nailed down the scope and nature of the problem :)
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Re: PSP does not see image orientation

Postby hartpaul » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:44 pm

But wait there's more - steak knives (whoops wrong add).
I took the thistle image duplicated it and saved it 8 times with different starting numbers 01 to 08. I then used a Hex editor to change the Orientation data (Hex 36) to 01 to 08 respectively.
Results:
X4 worked correctly in all cases
01ThistleX4.jpg


2018 disregarded the orientation in all cases - the dimensions may be the problem there.
02Thistle2018.jpg


Compared with the same 5D image also with 01 to 08 orientation changes where all are read correctly

03C5D2018.jpg


And a comparison of part of 2018 overlapping with X4
04Comparison2018vX4.jpg


I have managed to get a Canon 40D so will next test that. It was released in 2007.
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Re: PSP does not see image orientation

Postby Jean-Luc » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:25 pm

Richard wrote:
Jean-Luc wrote:I don't see an orientation value in the Exif (empty).

How are you looking at that?

Here ...
EOS 20D empty orientation.jpg

NIKON 80D not empty orientation.jpg
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Re: PSP does not see image orientation

Postby Richard » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:26 pm

Very interesting stuff! Especially that X4 gets it right every time, even the mirrored images. Based on the links you posted earlier is is rare that anything gets all of them right, especially anything as old as X4.

I opened a ticket with Corel, and pointed them to this thread. I'm not sure where it's going at this point though. It needs to be passed on to someone in the development group, and as far as I know that has not happened yet.
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Re: PSP does not see image orientation

Postby Richard » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:35 pm

Jean-Luc wrote:
Richard wrote:
Jean-Luc wrote:I don't see an orientation value in the Exif (empty).

How are you looking at that?

Here ...

OK. But I think that at this point hartpaul has established beyond any doubt that the EXIF information is there. Later versions of PSP just don't recognize it, so although you see it as empty in PSP, it's not actually empty.
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Re: PSP does not see image orientation

Postby Jean-Luc » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:30 pm

Richard wrote: Later versions of PSP just don't recognize it, so although you see it as empty in PSP, it's not actually empty.

I agree ... :)
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