NEW! PaintShop Pro 2019

FAQ: Why I cannot burn faster as the disc claimed?

Discuss anything about video editing, HD, codecs, etc......

Moderator: Ron P.

FAQ: Why I cannot burn faster as the disc claimed?

Postby davidpjr » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:02 am

I put in a DVD +R 16x. The burn options are 8x, 16x on up to 48x and maximum.

I select 16x to match the DVD. I put in the DVD and the options remove 16x and 48x and they become 8x and maximum. Thus, I cannot get my 16x DVD to burn any faster than 8x.

Something is wrong. Advice please !!
davidpjr
 

Postby Ken Berry » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:22 am

Something IS wrong: DVDs will not go up to 48x. In fact, they will not go above 16x. If you have the choice of 8x and maximum, the latter is 16x. And in any case, you should burn your video DVDs at as low a speed as you are able anyway -- in this case, it seems 8x...
Ken Berry
User avatar
Ken Berry
Site Admin
 
Posts: 20528
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:36 pm
Location: Levin, New Zealand
operating_system: Windows 10
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit
motherboard: Intel NUC7i7BNB J31145-306
processor: Core i7-7567U + 32 GB Optane
ram: 8 GB
Video Card: Intel Iris Plus 650
sound_card: Realtek High Definition Audio
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 2TB
Monitor/Display Make & Model: Kogan 32" 4K 3840 x 2160
Corel programs: VS 2018; PSP 2018; MS3D; ASP 3; DRAW 17

Postby davidpjr » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:30 am

Possibly the burn speed is assuming I am using a CD and when I put the DVD in and it realizes it is a DVD, it changes back to 8x and Maximum as the choices. That has to be it.

Why would I want to burn them slower than 16x anyway, is it due to possible errors?
davidpjr
 

Postby TDK1044 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:51 am

For optimum results burning video to DVD using Video Studio, don't burn at a higher rate than 4X.
Terry
TDK1044
 
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:35 pm
Location: USA

Postby sjj1805 » Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:00 am

For an explanation of the burn speed and to see the results of tests performed by Devil please view
Problems burning a DVD
sjj1805
 
Posts: 14914
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:20 am
Location: Birmingham UK
operating_system: Windows XP Pro
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 32 Bit
motherboard: Equium P200-178
processor: Intel Pentium Dual-Core Processor T2080
ram: 2 GB
Video Card: Intel 945 Express
sound_card: Intel GMA 950
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 1160 GB

Postby GeorgeW » Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:06 am

Ken Berry wrote:Something IS wrong: DVDs will not go up to 48x. In fact, they will not go above 16x.


I've been seeing alot of recent advertising for a Samsung DVD Burner that is 18x. First time I saw it, I thought it was a typo. then I saw it advertised in another store, and then another store.... So perhaps 18x is the bar now :?:

Regards,
George
User avatar
GeorgeW
 
Posts: 3262
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:25 am

Postby htchien » Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:11 am

The burning speed you can select would be decided by the following factors:

The max burning speed the burner firmware can support.
The max burning speed the disk can support.
The burning speed user choose.

If any factor is lower, burner will use the lower one to burn.

Burning software only send the burning commands to the burner, and the burner firmware will decide the burning speed from factors above.

Some disk manufacturers claim their disk can be burnt up to 16X or 18X, however it's only an advertisement and might only happen in a very ideal situation. (Take BenQ 16X disks for example, you need to have a BenQ 16X burner so you can burn in 16X)

About the 48X you see in the burning speed combo box, if you do not put the disk into the drive, the Speed combo box will show the CD burning speeds the burner can support. After you put the disk in, it will show the burning speed list which is a combination of burner and disk.

Hope this helps.

H.T.
Ted (H.T.)

The message is provided AS IS with no warranties and confers no rights. For official tech support please contact Corel Tech Support.

My YouTube channel
User avatar
htchien
Advisor
 
Posts: 2198
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 12:10 pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
operating_system: Mac
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit

Postby heinz-oz » Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:24 am

In this particular case, I guess, the media determined the max speed. I would stay below that in any case for video/DVD files.
heinz-oz
 

Postby htchien » Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:33 am

I think this post might be worth to be marked as a FAQ sticky, so I made it.

H.T.
Ted (H.T.)

The message is provided AS IS with no warranties and confers no rights. For official tech support please contact Corel Tech Support.

My YouTube channel
User avatar
htchien
Advisor
 
Posts: 2198
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 12:10 pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
operating_system: Mac
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit

Postby Devil » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:32 am

OK, here's an explanation WHY you should burn at lower than max speed.

With a pressed non-pirated disk containing a Hollywood blockbuster, the bits are pressed into one or two layer(s). I forget whether it's an 0 or a 1 bit that is actually pressed. This means that the profile of the layer looks like a series of pits, one for each bit. This is done from a carefully etched and polished master. If there is no pit, the collimated laser beam, focussed on the layer, goes through without interference, is reflected back by the metal coating (usually vacuum-evaporated aluminium), again without interference, to be picked up by the photodetector and so to the electronics. If there is a pit, then the light is refracted twice and the photodetector sees almost no light being returned. The contrast between a pit and no pit is therefore very high. Furthermore, the pits are very sharply defined, because they are mechanical. The size of each pit is less than 1 £gm, much less than the thickness of a hair. These factors make reading such a disc easy.

A DVD¡ÓR is not at all like this. The inner layer(s) consist of solid polymer loaded with photoinitiators. During "burning", the photoinitiator detects when a relatively high power laser beam is present and causes the polymer to change its chemical structure and, in doing so, becomes slightly more opaque. During subsequent reading, the laser beam, which is continuous, has to either traverse the virgin polymer layer, which is not fully transparent (the photoinitiators are usually dyes) or the photopolymerised bits, which are less transparent. The contrast between a 1 and 0 bit is therefore much lower, making accurate reading more difficult. However, this is not all. Unlike during reading, the burning laser beam is switched on and off for the different bits. Typically, if burnt at 1x speed, we are talking about 5 - 9 million bits in each second. If you burn at 16x, this would be 80 - 144 million bits/s and each bit may last about only 1.7 nanoseconds. But it takes the laser a significant fraction of a nS to reach full power and switch off. This means that the pseudo-pit does not have sharply defined leading and trailing edges and the slower the burning speed, so the edges are better defined, increasing the chances of accurate reading. Once again, it doesn't stop there. The photoinitiators release free radicals which cause the photopolymerisation. The latter will also, under some circumstances, release a few free radicals, so that the "burnt pit" will spread randomly some nanometres beyond the limits subjected to the laser beam, causing the fuzziness of the "pit" to be extended (on some cheap discs, this can continue in time, especially in warm environments, so that the disc becomes totally unreadable after a number of years).

On DVD¡ÓRW discs, the process is different. The sensitive layer is a quaternary metal alloy which has three complex phase states. These change with temperature. These are designated with Greek letters but I'll call them a, b and c. States a and b are stable at room temperature. State a is reflective and state b is less so. The change from a to b is a matter of temperature. The IR light energy in the laser beam is converted to heat energy which raises the temperature sufficiently to change the phase from a to b, giving less reflective bits. Erasing uses a continuous higher power which raises the temperature sufficiently to change the phase of a and b to c. However phase c is unstable and reverts directly to a on cooling.

Whatever, for best burning results, and especially for archival purposes, burn at the slowest speed possible to get the sharpest "pits". I always burn at ½ the maximum or less.

While on the subject of burning, there is a mechanical limit to burning speed, corresponding roughly to 48x for a CD and 16x for a DVD. Above that, the centrifugal force on the periphery of the disc itself will flow it outwards sufficiently to render burning/reading problematic. In fact, if the disc is slightly unbalanced, for any reason, it will even shatter in the drive at high speeds (I think there is a video on YouTube demonstrating such shattering). So the limit is physical.

Finally, did you know that high speeds apply only towards the centre of the disc? A DVD which is being burnt at 16x will start at 16x, but will slow down as the laser moves outwards and may be only 4x towards the edge. This maintains a sensibly constant peripheral speed at the laser radius.
Devil

P4 Core 2 Duo 2.6 GHz/Elite NVidia NF650iSLIT-A/2 Gb dual channel FSB 1333 MHz/Gainward NVidia 7300/2 x 80 Gb, 1 x 300 Gb, 1 x 200 Gb/DVCAM DRV-1000P drive/ Pan NV-DX1&-DX100/MSP8/WS2/PI11/C3D etc.
User avatar
Devil
 
Posts: 3522
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:06 am
Location: Cyprus

Postby skier-hughes » Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:04 pm

I believe that dvd speeds are about 9x that of cd speeds, at the lower speeds, not sure if it still equates to that at higher speeds. So a 1x dvd speed is equivalent to 9x cd speed.
skier-hughes
Microsoft MVP
 
Posts: 2688
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:09 am
Location: UK
operating_system: Windows 8
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit
motherboard: gigabyte
processor: Intel core 2 6420 2.13GHz
ram: 4GB
Video Card: NVidia GForce 8500GT
sound_card: onboard
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 36GB 2TB

Postby Devil » Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:32 pm

The speeds in rpm are almost the same. The bitrate ratio between CD and DVD is about 1:6.12. The rpm is deliberately limited somewhat with DVDs because the narrower track width means that the effect of centrifugal deformation, especially combined with eccentricity errors, would make tracking much more difficult at higher speeds.
Devil

P4 Core 2 Duo 2.6 GHz/Elite NVidia NF650iSLIT-A/2 Gb dual channel FSB 1333 MHz/Gainward NVidia 7300/2 x 80 Gb, 1 x 300 Gb, 1 x 200 Gb/DVCAM DRV-1000P drive/ Pan NV-DX1&-DX100/MSP8/WS2/PI11/C3D etc.
User avatar
Devil
 
Posts: 3522
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:06 am
Location: Cyprus

Postby 2Dogs » Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:26 pm

Devil wrote:Finally, did you know that high speeds apply only towards the centre of the disc? A DVD which is being burnt at 16x will start at 16x, but will slow down as the laser moves outwards and may be only 4x towards the edge. This maintains a sensibly constant peripheral speed at the laser radius.


Sorry, but it's actually the other way round. :(

For single layer discs at least, the data is burned on from the CENTRE outwards, and the read or write speed will INCREASE with increasing radius.

To demonstrate that this is actually the case, try burning a small amount of data onto a disc. You will see that there is "discolouration", or a change in colour, starting at the centre of the disc after the normal "lead-in".

At the start of a disc burn, at the centre of the disc, most of my DVD burners can only manage write speeds of the order of around 6.7x when burning at maximum speed to a 16x disc, using a constant angular velocity, or "CAV" burn strategy, and 16x write speed is only attained towards the very end of the burn, i.e. towards the outside edge of the disc.

With most commercial dual layer discs, or DL discs burned by consumer DVD burners, the data will start at the centre and work outwards for the first layer, and then work inwards for the second layer. This mimimises the glitch you get in playback at the "layer break", and will also give the characteristic inverted "V" graph when you read test the disc.
JVC GR-DV3000u Panasonic FZ8 VS 7SE Basic - X2
User avatar
2Dogs
Advisor
 
Posts: 1153
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:33 am
Location: Katrinaland

Postby sjj1805 » Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:51 am

Devil wrote:Finally, did you know that high speeds apply only towards the centre of the disc? A DVD which is being burnt at 16x will start at 16x, but will slow down as the laser moves outwards and may be only 4x towards the edge. This maintains a sensibly constant peripheral speed at the laser radius.


I read the above differently. The way I interpret the statement is that the computer makes the disc spin faster when reading/writing the inner areas of the disc but slows the disc down when the laser reads/writes the outer areas. This would make sense so that the data which is written in concentric lines would keep the same length irrespective of where on the disc it is located.

So a 2" long line written around the inner area would need the disc to spin faster than a 2" line written around the outer edges in order that the 2" line is read or written in "x" number of seconds (or milliseconds or whatever).

The way 2dogs is interpreting it requires that the disc maintains a constant speed irrespective of the part of the disc being read from or written to.

So the question is, does the disc spin at a constant speed or at a variable speed determined by the position of the laser?
sjj1805
 
Posts: 14914
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:20 am
Location: Birmingham UK
operating_system: Windows XP Pro
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 32 Bit
motherboard: Equium P200-178
processor: Intel Pentium Dual-Core Processor T2080
ram: 2 GB
Video Card: Intel 945 Express
sound_card: Intel GMA 950
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 1160 GB

Postby 2Dogs » Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:15 am

It depends on the "burn strategy". As I said in my post, when the strategy is CAV, for "constant angular velocity" - i.e. constant rpm, you see an increase in read or write speed as the head traverses outwards along the disc.

With other media, your burner may adopt a different strategy, such as ZCLV, standing for "zoned constant linear velocity" whereby the write speed is separated into three or so discrete "steps" of constant write speed rather than showing a gradual increase in write speed.

With lower speed rated media - e.g. 8x discs, you may see the read or write speed start out at 6.7x, say, and fairly soon get to the 8x maximum. It will then stay at 8x maximum, as the disc rotation or angular velocity is reduced, as the head proceeds outwards on the disc.

You can see all of the above effects using something like CD DVD Speed. I always use that program to burn all my DVD's from an ISO file, using the "create disc" tab, specifically so that I have a visible record of the burn strategy, and of the burner used to write to the disc.

To complicate matters, burners such as those formerly made by BenQ and also ones from Pioneer make continuous adjustments to the burn speed, laser power and disc rotation as the burn proceeds, so you get a very spiky graph in CD DVD Speed.
JVC GR-DV3000u Panasonic FZ8 VS 7SE Basic - X2
User avatar
2Dogs
Advisor
 
Posts: 1153
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:33 am
Location: Katrinaland

Next

Return to VIDEO & DVD

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest